Ethics and Energetic Boundaries for Intuitives

On episode 20 of Living Tarot, I break down the importance of having ethics in your intuitive practice. I go into great detail on setting up rules and boundaries with the type of work you want to do both with energetic boundaries with the spirit world and with clients.

  • I talk about the importance of clearing yourself and your energy on a daily basis and grounding.
  • I discuss being an ethical reader and what it means to have healthy boundaries.
  • I give specific instructions on how to set those boundaries and how to hold them in your space so that you and clients feel safe.
  • Ethical boundaries are at the core of having a trauma-informed practice.
  • I talk about breaking down unhealthy energetic exchanges with in partnerships and family system

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Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of practical Tarot for everyday intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the taro along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing. Empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot.

Hey there a tarot friend, I wanted to ask you for a quick favor. I’ve been working very hard behind the scenes to get living Terrill out there in front of as many people as possible, but I can’t do it without your help. So for the month of November 2020, I am running a special contest. And the prize will be a career ahead tarot reading, which is a reading of the full view of the year ahead in your business or career. So if you would like to enter, head on over to Apple podcasts, and review Living Tarot, preferably with a five star review, and leave a comment about what you learned from the podcast, your favorite episode, or even questions that you might have, that you’d like me to answer on upcoming episodes, and then share a screenshot of that review over on Instagram and tag me at Star Sage spirit. And if you don’t have Instagram, you can always send a screenshot to my email.I’ll include more info about how to enter this contest over on Instagram, and in the show notes for today’s episode.

Hello fellow seekers and welcome back to Living Tarot. On today’s episode, I’m going to talk about something that’s pretty important as intuitive people. And that is boundaries. So my theme for November on the podcast really is all around boundaries, including some of the guests that I have coming in, and also my own episodes, but in particular today,

I want to focus on boundaries and ethics when it comes to being an intuitive person and living an intuitive life, and what that really means. And we’re really talking about bridging the gap between October where we were very focused on intuition into November where we’re focusing on boundaries. So kind of a combination of intuition, and ethics and boundaries in today’s episode, which might not sound super fun. But we’re also going to talk about how to protect yourself and your own energy. Because when we have good boundaries, it’s not just about not being in somebody else’s business. It’s also about protecting your own energy, clearing your own energy field, being kind to yourself. 

So to start out, when it comes to being an intuitive person, whether you consider yourself to be highly intuitive, sensitive person, an empath, we tend to exchange energy with people on a daily basis without necessarily realizing it. Sometimes it’s obvious sometimes we, you know, we have that conversation on the phone with a friend. And when we get off, we just feel exhausted, like, completely drained. Like we, we were supporting this person supporting this person supporting this person. And now we just feel completely spent. Or we might feel like, perhaps you talk to a friend who’s going through something really emotional and upsetting, and you get off the phone with them and you feel upset and emotional, as if you’ve taken that on. And usually what happens in that situation is that you’ve acted as an energetic kind of sounding board for that person. And they’ve had the ability to and it’s not malicious, it’s just habitual. And especially in some of our interpersonal relationships, we will see this. But what really happens is that this person has kind of dumped their energy, their worries, their anxieties onto us, and we’ve taken them on and so afterwards, our friend might feel better, because they’ve kind of dumped that load on someone else. But we might feel worse. And so that is important to notice, like when things like that are going on, if you find yourself feeling that way, in interpersonal relationships where this can come up a lot, particularly within family systems, so either with parents, or with a spouse or partner, sometimes even with children, so we might find ourselves in this sort of energetic exchange where and you’ll see it in behaviors as well. So for example, a good example that a lot of people can relate to is, if you are traditionally the one that is doing a lot of cleaning and, and labor around the house, you might notice that other people will leave, you know, dirty dishes or dirty clothes or towels on the floor, or whatever it is, and have the expectation that you will clean that up, because it is labor that you have taken on. And so it creates this kind of weird energetic exchange where we are constantly like, putting too much energy out there. And the other people are passing that, that, that responsibility off to us, because they’re so used to the way that that exchange goes on. And this isn’t to say, don’t clean your house. That’s not what I’m saying.

But sometimes we do need to set boundaries there, if you put the dishes in the dishwasher, I will make sure everything gets washed, but otherwise, I’m not going to you’re gonna have to clean that up. And so, we will see this come up a little bit in those relationships. And also, you will notice it come up. You know, if you are a person that is particularly empathic, you might have strangers opening up to you about deeply personal things. So maybe you’re at the grocery store, and you’re in line, and somebody is like talking to you about their life, you know, and I’m like, deeply personal things, or I’ve had the experience of like, being in an elevator with someone and then just kind of like, completely opening up about like a deeply personal situation that I would never speak to a stranger about. So you might find yourself in situations like that. And that’s an exchange, also, because people can feel something in your energy where they can feel that you’re open to that kind of exchange. And it’s not like you’re not saying that you’re asking for it or anything, it’s just that people recognize something in your energy field that is more receptive. And so therefore, they meet that receptivity with, like a giving, unfortunately, is often in giving what they do not want to deal with, or what is unpleasant or uncomfortable to deal with. So that’s really where where this all kind of starts. It’s all an exchange. And it’s this isn’t about this isn’t to, to judge you or to make you feel guilt, or like you’re doing something wrong. It’s really just about noticing. And the reason I’m bringing up these specific examples is to give you ideas of how this might be showing up in your life, or how to notice if this is happening to you. So these boundaries are important for us, not just so that our energy is clear, and so that we aren’t getting worn out. But they’re also important because it’s about respecting other people’s privacy. And this is really important. Like, I can’t even It is hard to, to even fathom how important this is. And it might not seem that way. I think a lot of people when they think about being intuitive, or, you know, I’ve had people say things to me, about my gifts that kind of come from a misunderstanding of how they work, that you know, they would, they would be checking in, you know, on all these different people in their lives to see how they really feel. And it’s not, it’s not about that it’s not really appropriate to go to go digging around in someone else’s energy. And it is important to have strong boundaries around that. Because it’s not your business and privacy is really important. And ethics in intuition is really important. And just because you can do something doesn’t mean that you should do something. So just because you can send something or kind of tap into somebody doesn’t mean that you should and it doesn’t mean that it’s appropriate to and if you’re having trouble figuring out if it’s an appropriate thing to do think about if the shoe was on the So if your roles were reversed, how would you feel about that person tapping into you and your energy and kind of taking an intuitive peek at you. And if you find right away that you had a very visceral response to that, then stop doing that. 

So along with that, it is important. You might be sitting there and saying, Well, I’m not doing this on purpose. Like, I don’t mean to pick this stuff up, how can I stop picking this stuff up from other people? What is going on that I I go through my whole day and and for some of us, who are more sensitive, and are able to work from home now, it’s been a little bit of a comfort. But you might have had the experience in the past of being at work and picking up stuff from coworkers or picking up stuff from clients. And you might think I really don’t want that I really don’t want this, but I don’t know how to stop getting it like how can I? How can I shut this down? How can I stop this in my in its tracks to you, I want to say you are in charge of this, you make the rules. So it’s your responsibility to set up what rules you want in place. And this is important because it is deeply personal to you. Perhaps you want to know certain things in in certain relationships. So maybe with your spouse, you want to know a little bit more than you would with, say a stranger on the subway with you. So it’s okay to set up rules around that. And I’ll give some examples of that in a moment. But you ultimately are in charge. So if you’re having that response, where you’re feeling like I don’t know how to control this, I can’t do that. Sheila is telling me to do this, and I don’t feel like I can do it, I don’t feel like she understands I completely understand because in the beginning, when I was going through my kind of spiritual opening, I was completely inundated I was really really overwhelmed. I was having a really hard time at work in in, in a professional environment. Because I I was picking up stuff from people that I knew it wasn’t appropriate for me to know. And I didn’t, I didn’t know how to control it. In fact, I avoided going to one in person meeting because I just I did not have control over it. And I was so nervous about picking up something that wasn’t appropriate that I just joined virtually. And it can be very disruptive, if you are sensitive, if you are going through some sort of either upgrade or change to your connection, it can be extremely overwhelming. So I was doing all of this stuff in the beginning without meaning to. And so that’s why, you know, everything that I talked about on this podcast is really born out of my own experience or the experience of clients of mine or students of mine, who have kind of come through over and over. And I’ve heard some of the similar complaints. And so that’s kind of what I use to formulate a lot of these things. So I had this experience as well, where I was just completely exhausted and terrified, basically, all of the time when I was going through this. So if you want things, if you are picking stuff up that you don’t want to pick up, if you are seeing things you don’t want to see feeling things you don’t want to feel, hearing things you don’t want to hear, you know, there’s so many different ways that our different gifts work. You can set rules, and how I would suggest doing this is sitting down. It doesn’t have to be in like meditation, it could also be going for a walk or something if you connect more deeply in that kind of environment. But wherever you feel safe and secure, so if that’s in bed, if it’s in a nice chair, in your house somewhere, wherever you feel good to then take a moment to sit down to do some breathing. And to call in whatever type of support you need, whether that is loved ones who are in spirit, whether it’s angels guides, if you’re religious, and there’s some sort of deity or you know, religious figure that you would connect with or that you like to work with in those situations. You can call in those spirits of the highest level for your highest good and and try to connect with them to help you set the best rules for yourself. And then think about about situations where something has come up where you felt uncomfortable, how could you make a rule around that situation that would make you feel more comfortable, or that would have you not have to deal with that thing at all. So I’ll give you an example.

I had the experience of complete overwhelm when my mediumship gift gifts started showing up again. And I felt like I was getting tapped by spirits kind of all the time, I would set up my Reiki sessions, and I still felt like I was having a hard time keeping, you know, I tried to protect the room. And I still felt like I was having a hard time keeping spirits of deceased loved ones out. And so I had a conversation with one of my teachers. And she talked to me about setting boundaries in this way. And so I set up a rule, that was, first of all, I only want communication from spirits of people who I know personally or am acquainted with, personally, I don’t want all of the spirits that are out there, because there are tons of them. And it’s too confusing.

So just setting that boundary was enough to make a significant difference in what I was experiencing on a daily basis. And from there, I set other rules too. So for example, no one can be, you know, no spirits can be in my room, when I’m getting ready for bed, like we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna be in the room, my bedroom at night, that’s my own personal time, I don’t want anybody in there. And that is a very strict rule that I enforce. And since setting, it has really not been a problem, and every once in a while, you might find that there’s some sort of intrusion on that boundary, but usually you can reinforce it very quickly again. And I’ve also set up rules like what I call like, the human rules for spirits. So sometimes spirits get, like, very excited, and like, really, you know, I’m around somebody who they want to talk to. And so they might like, really, really be in my face. But I set up human rules where I say, you can’t interrupt me or somebody else while they’re talking. Like you need to wait for your chance to talk. And things like in my, in my home, you can’t just be like lurking around the house, if you would like to talk to me, you have to come to the front door like a person would. And so just setting some of those boundaries helped me to not feel so jumpy, or like I was going to walk around the corner and find the spirit there, you know, it really settled things inside of my house and really handed the power back to me. And that was so important for me. And it is important for you to if you’re an intuitive person. Now, I am giving examples about mediumship. But it doesn’t have to just be that. So for example, in some of the other work I do, so when I do past life healing, initially, I was seeing everything I would kind of see it like almost like watching a little movie in my head. And I had to set some rules around that as well. Because often, especially in a healing environment, the lifetimes that were coming in were a lot of traumatic things, a lot of violence. And so I had to set some rules about what I was seeing and what I didn’t need to see. So you know, I had to remove some of that violence, from my vision. And it doesn’t, in any way affect the healing work that I was doing. And I feel much better not seeing that. And for the most part, I can kind of assume what happened without having to see and bear witness to it. And can still move through that healing without having to have it literally in my face. So you might want to start to set up some rules for yourself. So perhaps, you would like to not pick anything up at work. Or you would only like to pick things up. You know, when you open up to it, or you know, you you can kind of anything goes here and I would encourage you to set that time to go into that space where you feel very comfortable. And to maybe even write those rules down sometimes. For some of us, it’s hard to like, hold a sentence in our mind when we’re, we’re asking for this. So if something comes to you maybe write it down, maybe have a little list of rules.

And then you know you can use that as your touch point for everything that you’re doing. So, if you are at work one day, and you’re somehow picking up on something that you shouldn’t be, you can say, Nope, rule number three, we’re violating rule number three, right? Now, send this back out. And that’s really important because it really does give the power back to you. And it helps you to stop feeling like you are a victim of your own gifts, or you’re a victim of your own power. And really puts you back in the driver’s seat. And what’s also important about this is that you’re being an ethical person in terms of not invading someone else’s space. So if you are going through something deeply personal, and your boss, or your coworker knew about it, because they were kind of digging around in your psychic space in your aura, your energy, whatever you like to call it, how would you feel about that? You know, I really want you to think about that. Because I think sometimes, when we do have something new are happening, we really want to practice it, we really want to exercise it. We’re curious, we want to kind of tap into all these different people, maybe we want to check on exes, you know, there’s all kinds of stuff that can come up. And that’s okay, you know, that’s, that’s a human impulse. But my bet is that you would have plenty of people who you are friendly with who are thoughtful, good friends in your life, who would be willing to let you practice on them. And one of the most important rules that I set up is one that I keep in all sessions with clients, which is that I never want to know something, or hear something or see something that the client is not comfortable with me knowing hearing or seeing. So you, you might be like, what, what does that mean? So Meaning, if I’m doing a mediumship reading for someone, and there is something deeply personal that the person, the spirit that I’m talking to, has experienced or has done wrong to the client that is sitting with me, I don’t want to know something that is too private to that client.

Hey there, I wanted to remind you that this is a great time of year to get a career ahead tarot reading. This reading will give you a full view of the year ahead in your business or career. It’ll enlighten you as to the stories that you’re telling yourself about your work and business. It’s a full look at what feels true, what is true and how to work through doubt and imposter syndrome. We’ll talk about what obstacles you may be coming up against so that you can be prepared to meet them, and how to play to your strengths and where to focus your energy. Your session will be fully collaborative and offer you the opportunity to weigh your options and evaluate different career paths and offers. This reading is designed to empower you to make career choices that offer you the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion. And to consider things you might not have. clients who’ve had one of these sessions with me have been able to analyze job offers aligned new services and products with their value, and things like the timing to roll them out and felt empowered to negotiate five figure salary increases. This is the perfect time of year for this type of reading. And I don’t have a ton of availability around the holidays. So if you are interested, make sure you head on over to the show notes and look into booking a session today. 

So I might still get something about it I might get you know what happens a lot in that situation is the spirit will tell me that there is something that’s private. That is not for me to know but  that they want to take responsibility for or apologize for. And they will say that to me. And without a doubt every single time that has happened, the client has known exactly what I’m talking about. And I tell people that when they come in for a session, I won’t know anything that they aren’t comfortable with. And that applies to Reiki. It applies to Tarot. It’s extremely important to me because when you are setting up an environment in which people are trying to heal and trying to feel comfortable. And this applies to any work, you don’t have to be doing spiritual work because people know when somebody is digging around in their business, even if they’re not totally aware of it, they will be on edge around you. And so I set this up as one of my main intentions with all of the work that I do, because it’s extremely important for me to set up an environment where my clients can come in and be vulnerable without Feeling like something is going to go too far, or go outside of their comfort zone. That’s very important to me, it’s very important to me as a client of other readers as well. So I do really encourage you to respect that. And also, if you are a healer and a reader, we can sometimes and again, I speak from personal experience, have a tendency to want to go above and beyond and try to like fix something or like, fix something for the client, or, you know, tap in and try to like push things around a little bit.

And that is not for you to do it – Who are you to fix something for someone else,?you are holding space for them to have their own experience. And it’s not up to you to solve everything for the person. And when you do that, you’re really doing them a disservice because they aren’t getting the opportunity to, to heal themselves to participate in their own healing process, and to really learn to take responsibility. And something that I have seen, sometimes with other readers, or especially people who are newer to intuitive gifts, is that they can overstep a little bit. And you know, when it happens, maybe you’ve witnessed it, maybe you’ve done it yourself and then felt guilty afterwards. Again, no shame, we all learn from experience, and I am sharing this now. So that if you are doing it, you can stop. If you have done it in the past, you can be like, whoops, I won’t do that. Again. It’s not about judging ourselves, it’s about learning and committing to be better.

So it is really important to not offer a reading to someone who’s not asking for it, to not be digging around in someone’s business that’s not your own. And when you do that kind of stuff, you are really opening yourself up to things that are, you’re opening yourself up in a way that is not totally safe, and can create this sort of like strange attachment to someone else. And can open, you know, gateways for them to, you know, do do some damage to you maybe accidentally, but it can also do damage to to them and to you know, their psyche and their sense of comfort.

So I did want to talk about that. So if you are finding yourself in situations, particularly if you work in an environment where you’re around a lot of people, or maybe it’s kind of a toxic environment, you might benefit from doing just a little bit of energy maintenance. And I would encourage all of us to do this, even if we’re not even if we don’t explicitly find ourselves in that type of environment. When you are going out into either a crowd or if you’re going to work for the day, or whatever it is, I would encourage you if you’re going you know grocery shopping out in public anywhere where you’re going to be kind of exposed to a lot of people to imagine drawing your aura back in towards your body. And on next week’s episode, I’m going to be interviewing Eliza Swann, who wrote a book all about were us called Anatomy of the Aura. And we’ll talk a little bit more about some of these techniques. But I want you to imagine that you could kind of draw all of your energy back in towards your body. So it’s just kind of like a really tight outline around the outside of your body. So it’s very, very close to you. And what that does is that when you go out into these very public places and spaces, you will be able to not be picking up on the emotions, the feelings, the excess energy, the low energy, whatever it is of the people around you. And you will feel hopefully, much less exhausted when you come home. I will say in particular, it’s been important for me during the pandemic to do this when I’m grocery shopping. Because I find that it can be a very tense environment, less so now than at the very beginning of things but I still find it to be a little bit frenetic and very nervous energy in the store. So I will encourage you to try that and to see how it works for you if you notice a difference. And if you are a person who does healing work like myself, I will also do the opposite when I am working with someone so for example, it’s a little bit Different right now with the internet and doing all of my work virtually. But for example, when I was seeing clients in my space in my office, I would kind of push my, my aura out. So imagine my aura kind of filling the whole healing room that we were in, so that I am holding that space for the client to feel very safe and secure. Because I am making sure that the space is stable, that it’s full of my energy that I am not, you know, there’s no kind of like rogue energies wandering around. And that there is a boundary around that space, and that I’ve claimed it as my own. It’s not just out there for anybody to enter. And so doing that, even if you don’t do something that’s like traditionally healing, if you do if you’re a therapist, if you are an esthetician, or do facials, or skincare, or nails or hair, whatever it is, I’m imagining that’s kind of like your space, because the other thing that happens is when you have clients coming into that space, it it lets them know, like who who is in charge right now. And ultimately, you know, the client is in charge of their own healing, but it lets them know that they’re kind of, how can I say it kind of like energetically off the hook, they’re not going to have to make sure that they’re safe in this space, they can just be themselves. And that’s one of the things that I noticed that has really helped with. 

Along with that. If you are a person, especially in any of those fields that I just mentioned, where you might have a lot of clients kind of coming in and out. And even if you’re not, it is extremely, extremely, extremely important right now, especially to be clearing yourself every day. And I’ll say a couple different things about this. So first of all, if you are doom scrolling on social media, if you are watching the news, obsessively worried about the election, I will encourage you to clear your energy every time you finish, so that you’re not carrying it around with you like a little anxiety bundle. So one of the ways that I like to imagine doing this, and I’ve heard a lot of a lot of spiritual teachers, everybody seems to do the same kind of exercise, where it’s almost like you imagine turning on like a showerhead of some sort of either color or like sparkling light that comes down through the crown of your head, and just kind of removes anything that’s not yours or anything that’s not serving you from your body, and then just allows it to dissipate to go back to wherever it came from. And to kind of clear you of any access or anything extra that kind of come in, or that you’ve picked up from anyone else. So that’s really important. And I would say if you do client work like I do, if you can do it after every single session, that’s awesome, it doesn’t, doesn’t have to be a long time I do it now it takes me maybe like one to three minutes to do the whole thing to just kind of clear everything out. And then after I do that clearing, I always make sure to ground myself also. So and that doesn’t have to be a visualization. I mean, that’s cool. But I find it just as effective to just either like stretch, move my body a little bit, feel my feet planted, sturdy on the ground, to do like a little forward fold.

And if that’s not accessible to you, you know, you can just feel all of the places where your body is in contact with a surface that supports you. So if you can’t stand if you’re if you’re in a wheelchair or something like that feeling, you know, everywhere where like your arms rest everywhere, maybe where your head rests, where you’re feeling that support, that’s really a good way to to bring that grounding into your body. Even if you just kind of like roll your neck around a little bit, feeling you’re a kind of physical body in whatever space that you’re in. So those two things really go a long way in terms of being able to manage your energy long term, and to not feel so depleted because even those of us even if you set the very strong boundaries, you will still have days where you’re feeling depleted or you feel like you’re taking stuff on and where there is a lot of stuff that can kind of get get stuck and particularly right now, because these are very anxious times. It’s it’s really important to notice how it’s affecting you To take your your power back a little bit. Because there are a lot of situations right now, where many of us are feeling powerless. And this is something that you can do. It’s a place where you can assert yourself. And it’s really important.

And then finally, the last thing that I want to talk about, which I will elaborate on, in a couple weeks on the next episode, where I talk about boundaries for the holidays, and family is meditating on some of the exchanges of energy that you’re struggling to break. And what I mean by this is, a lot of the time when we show up, in particular, in our romantic relationships, and like I said, in our immediate family, we might find that there is a particular energetic exchange, that is not really serving either of us. So it’s not really serving our relationship. And I don’t just mean romantic I can, that can mean with parents, with siblings, with children. Where we really feel like something is stuck, like we’re stuck in this pattern, we keep seeing this cycle play out that neither of us wants to participate in. And yet we’re doing it over and over. When that happens, I want you to think about sitting down, and then just taking a moment to connect to that exchange, and try to approach it less with like fear or anger or resentment, and more with curiosity. So asking questions, like, why is this so hard for me to break? What is it about this exchange that’s so challenging to give up? Because often what’s happening is we are afraid that if we it’s usually something like this, we are afraid that if we stop doing that, for that person, that they will resent us or they will, in some way, withhold from us something that we want, or feel like we are mean, or not a nice person or not a good partner.

And we feel we feel that way. And they might feel like you know, they don’t trust themselves to do that thing for themselves. So they keep putting it on you to do it for them. And so we you know, there’s there’s a lot of different ways that these things come up. That’s just an example.

But when we have those situations where it’s really hard for us to let go of that exchange, and we can kind of feel that connection and see that cycle playing out over and over, trying to get curious and asking those questions will will help you to start to let go of that a little bit. It doesn’t mean that suddenly, overnight, you’re going to be, you know, nailing it, absolutely not unfortunately, but at the same time, you will start to gain a little bit more clarity about it. And I’m betting that both of you will start to gain some clarity about it can be tricky. And like I said, I’m going to talk about it a little bit more in my next solo episode. But I do think that it’s important to notice and to be more curious than critical about those energetic exchanges that are harder to break. And I also want to mention that sometimes, especially in partnerships, there are times where we might need to carry a little bit more of the load because our partner might be struggling. And there’s also times where they might need to carry a little bit more of the energetic load. And that’s okay, you know, not everything needs to be in balance all of the time. Hopefully, over a lifetime, it kind of balances out, you know, you don’t always want it to be imbalanced either. But it’s okay for things to temporarily shift as well.

So I hope that you found that helpful, and educational. And I would love to hear what came up for you. If you tried some of these exercises, you can definitely send me a message on Instagram or send me an email. That’s all I have for us today. But I will be back next week and in two weeks to talk a little bit more about boundaries. So that’s all for today.

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you, and what you’d like to hear even more of, as always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Tech Witch Intuition and Embodying the Hanged One & the 6 of Swords with Patty Ryan Lee

In episode 19 of Living Tarot, I interview my friend Tech Witch, Patty Ryan Lee. Patty Ryan Lee is the witch, tarot reader, and web developer behind The Fiery Well, a bespoke web design, branding, business, and tech support space just for witches. She works 1:1 with select clients and supports a community of business witches in her monthly membership program, The Wellspring. From your “why” to your “ how the fuck do I build it,” it is Patty’s goal to support you on your journey to online entrepreneurship.

  • We talk about how Patty stepped into her role as a web designer creating websites for witches and also how she accepted the label of witch.
  • We discuss how motherhood changed Patty and I helped her show up as her authentic self.
  • We discuss how important it is to understand your why in business and how no matter how much work you put in, if you can’t answer that question it makes everything else you’re doing more difficult. 
  • Patty talks all about creating her tech support community for Woo prenuers, The Fiery Well.
  • Patty is currently taking a social media break through the end of the year but you can check out her blog all about it here and follow along with how she runs an online business without social media

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Connect with Patty:

Follow along with Patty’s Anti-Social media Captain’s Log here:

Find me at

Freebie for your audience:

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing. Empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot.

Hey there a tarot friend. I wanted to ask you for a quick favor. I’ve been working very hard behind the scenes to get Living Tarot out there in front of as many people as possible, but I can’t do it without your help. So for the month of November 2020, I am running a special contest. And the prize will be a career ahead tarot reading, which is a reading of the full view of the year ahead in your business or career. So if you would like to enter, head on over to Apple podcasts, and review Living Tarot, preferably with a five star review, and leave a comment about what you learned from the podcast, your favorite episode, or even questions that you might have, that you’d like me to answer on upcoming episodes, and then share a screenshot of that review over on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit. And if you don’t have Instagram, you can always send a screenshot to my email. I’ll include more info about how to enter this contest over on Instagram and in the show notes for today’s episode. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. I am so excited today to interview one of my business besties, Patty Ryan Lee. Patty Ryan Lee is the witch, tarot reader, and web developer behind The Fiery Well and bespoke web design, branding, business and tech support space just for witches. She works one on one with select clients and supports a community of business witches in her monthly membership program the wellspring from your why? to your How the fuck do I build it? It is Patty’s goal support you on your journey to online entrepreneurship. Patty, as I said, is a friend from a business program that I was in earlier this year. I have also been a member of her membership program the wellspring for about six months now. And it has absolutely opened my eyes not just to how to be more efficient with my tech in business, but also how to include things like accessibility and some of my online offerings, and how to continue to develop a web presence that’s in alignment with how I really want to be serving my customers and not just how I feel like I should be serving my customers. This conversation was so much fun. And we had a really lovely discussion about how Patty embodies the hanged one because of her ability to really shift perspective, and also the six of swords in the way that she can really help Shepherd you away from the things that aren’t working. Even if you don’t know exactly where you can end up. She really acts as a facilitator to get you there. So I am so excited for you to listen to this episode. Let’s dive right in.

Awesome so welcome to Living Tarot today I have my friend Patti with me Patty Can you introduce yourself and tell us what it is that you do? 

Patty Ryan Lee  4:17  

Hi, waving doesn’t work because this is on the air. But I am currently waving from Dayton, Ohio and I am Patty Ryan Lee. And I am the witch and tarot reader and web developer behind The Fiery Well. I make quote unquote hashtag websites for witches. And I help soul centered entrepreneurs and “woopreneurs” as I like to call them with all of their technical and I guess because oh my god, yes. Yes. I sing as well with all their shit with all their technical shit. Right. So and I’m kind of adding in, like business guidance. So it’s, you get kind of business guidance plus the technical it’s what should I do? Okay. How the hell do I do it? This way? Here’s your systems. Here’s your technical to go with it. So that’s kind of where I’m headed with my membership, The Wellspring of which you are currently a member.

Sheila M  5:13  

I am a member. I know. And and one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on is because I think that what you do is so unique. I mean, I’m sure you don’t, because you’re out there seeing everybody who’s doing the same thing similar to me, you know, where I’m like sitting everybody else’s reading tarot. I’m like, Oh, this is just like everybody else. But But I think your you know, your perspective is unique. And we were in a business development program earlier this year, during the the beginning of the pandemic and the craziness of the year. And I’m really, I mean, part of what inspired me to join, join the wellspring When you opened it was that in our in our little, like, chat group for, for the group of people that was in that program, you there was like, not a single question that came up that you couldn’t just kind of, like, rattle off an answer to like, how does Patty know literally everything about every piece of technology like this, unbelievable. And since joining, I’ve seen how much like I’m, I’m a big fan of saying stay in like, you know, zone of genius, and and all of that. And I think like, I’ve seen how from the very beginning, because I joined in your first run how like your program has evolved, and it just keeps getting better. And you keep kind of narrowing it down more and more towards what what you really want to do. So it’s been very helpful for me, because I would say that technology is not a part of my zone of genius. And I recognized this year, how important it is to make an investment in the things that you aren’t good at when you are an entrepreneur. 

Patty Ryan Lee  6:57  

It Yeah, and that’s kind of it’s very difficult to do, yes. To say, Oh, I need help. That’s very hard for me to do. And then to actually go out and do it. That takes a very high level of bravery. Yes.

Sheila M  7:18  

And truly, like not just because we’re friends, but like it has truly been worth its weight in gold. Since I, it’s not even, you know, it is the support, absolutely. But it’s also the peace of mind that I have that if I get into something where I’m in over my head, I have somebody that I can go to that is a resource. So it’s not just the community itself. But it’s also the fact that you’ve set yourself up in such a way that I feel really confident coming to you with problems with issues that come up in pretty much any kind of system that I’m running into, to be honest, yeah.

Patty Ryan Lee  7:58  

That makes me very happy to hear. And it’s, I’ve done my best to simplify. I want to lead by example and say, Hey, you don’t have to pack it all in. You can do this very simply. Very easily. Less is more. And I am insurance. Yeah, I am. nobody really wants right. But I am the insurance company for your technical problems. Like, Oh shit, how does this work in ConvertKit? Oh, fuck. Oh, yeah, well, you just do this. Let’s hop on a loom. Let’s hop on a workshop. And let’s just do this, right?

Sheila M  8:36  

Yeah, it’s literally I’ll ask a question. And like five minutes later, there’s like a video that’s like, here’s the step by step walkthrough of how to do it. And I’m like, how did? How did you do it so fast? And it’s the best i can’t i truly, I can’t recommend it enough. I’m like your biggest fan girl. But um, I know you’ve been doing this basically. Like, since it began, since web development was like, I think you’re doing it a really long time. So can you talk a little bit about what led you to that and what kind of got you started?

Patty Ryan Lee  9:08  

My parents started in 1995 -1996. And it really started as a competition between my dad and myself of who could understand HTML, more quicker. He won, but then I went off to do a lot more right and, um, yeah, so it was a website dedicated to the industrial weighing industry. Shout out skill Buyer’s Guide, but I closed that last year to focus on my baby. Which time I didn’t have a baby. In terms of business, I had a I had an actual living child. But yeah, I’ve been doing this a while. I was 10 when they started. Just to age myself and I love it. I love the technology. I don’t Like the rapidness of it, like there’s constantly something new to learn. As I’m sure you feel in business, it’s like, oh, fuck, something’s changed. I have to learn this again, I have to learn it over. Now there’s something new. And if you look back, all websites are still built on HTML. Yep. Right. It’s still Tim berners. Lee internet, right. And that’s not going to, I hope, knock on wood. It’s not going to change. Hi, guys. So it is much new technologies out there. You can still do the basics, you can still do this simple. Keep it simple. And it’s taken a long time for me to realize that I was always trying to figure out okay, I need to learn this crap. Can you learn this? crap? I’ve already forgotten what I just.

Sheila M  10:48  

Yeah, only so much can fit in your head at once. 

Patty Ryan Lee  10:52  

Yeah, right. And then every company I ended up working for whether it was hired as a secretary or chocolatier. I ended up doing their website. It didn’t matter. Like it’s like, oh, you know this? It’s like, yeah, what’s hard about this. Apparently, it’s actually quite difficult. Uh, yeah. Okay, let’s, let’s walk you through this and how to do this. And, yeah, the ways.

Sheila M  11:18  

I think a big part of like intimidation, too, you know, I think like, um, for me at least, well, first of all, I do want to go back to something that you said, which is like, you get into business for yourself, and you think that you’re doing one thing. So like, I started my company, and I was like, Okay, I’m doing healing work and Tarot. So like, I’m doing Reiki, and I’m doing Tarot. So it’s like, all I have to do, but then you’re like, Okay, well, like, I should probably have a website, like, at least so people can like find me. So then you’re like, I always say, being a solopreneur. and protect in particular, it’s like, you have two jobs all of the time, you have the business manager, who’s learning how to build the website, how to maintain the website, how to do email marketing, how to set up your scheduler, how to do all of that stuff. And then you’ve got the person who’s actually the work that you actually set out to do, which is actual session work. I’m working with people and teaching Tarot. And one of the things that being in the wellspring has really helped me with is like, the business manager apart because I’m like, okay, I don’t have time to do research on these 17 technology tools to try to figure out which one is worth learning. So like, it kind of like narrows that down and in a major way. But also, one of the things that has been really helpful is, you kind of you don’t just say like this, you explain the why behind it. Yes, it has been very helpful for me, because you can understand that there’s different personalities that are coming in looking for different things. And so it’s kind of like, this isn’t better than this. It’s more about like, what works for you. And you make it right, even though it is a community, you make it very personal, which I think is awesome.

Patty Ryan Lee  13:09  

Oh, wonderful. I’d love to hear that. Because that’s that’s the goal. Because I I’m glad you mentioned why because that has been my obsession for this last year is figuring out the why why do you do this? Why are you this way? You know, what is? What is my motivation, as they would say? Right? Yeah. And it comes down exactly in technology. What, what website maker should I use? Should I use Squarespace? Should I use WordPress? And it’s like, well, what are you trying to do? Yeah, that’s what matters. Yeah. Because you may not need either. I’m the web developer that will tell you, you don’t need a website. Yep. I need the tool that does what you’re trying to do. Right. And that’s been a difficulty is not everybody needs the square peg. Right? Um, or the square hole? I’m a round peg. Yeah. How do I use come to me and I can help you figure that out. I had a conversation in a group. And it was like, you know, if you ask in a Facebook group, hey, what do you recommend for a website, right? And you get umpteen replies. They’re all different. And it’s like, I’m the only one asking questions. It’s like, Well, excuse me. What do you What are you actually trying to do? Yeah. Oh, ah, and it stops people in their tracks. Because most people think about their website in terms of, quote, unquote, a website makes it real. Thank you. Squarespace. I hate you. A not to knock Squarespace. It works. If it’s the tool for you. That’s the tool you should use. But like, I have opinions and all these I have hot takes on all of them. 

Sheila M  14:59  

Lay ’em down. I’ll take hot takes All night.

Patty Ryan Lee  15:04  

Oh, it comes down to most people don’t know why they want a website. They know that they need one, they know that they’ve been fed that line, I need a website, or I’m not a real business, I need a website or I can’t do this. And I think it’s a wonderful excuse that people have. And I think I’m guilty of it myself spending a lot of time working on your website, because you’re unsatisfied in your business. Yep. Yep.

Sheila M  15:31  

I think like, I’ve seen so many, especially now that I am in more, you know, business groups on Facebook and different communities. I see. I can see it now. As soon as somebody starts asking the question about the tools, you know, what I mean? That they’re, like, distracted by like, a shiny thing, you know, like, they’re like, what’s gonna? And, and it’s a different quality, then somebody who comes in and is like, Hey, I’m having this problem. What tool Have you guys use to solve this problem? It’s more like, um, you know, what’s the best marketing software? I looked at this? But like, I don’t really know, you know, and you’re, like, just talk to people?

Patty Ryan Lee  16:12  

Well, and it’s hard to to articulate what it is you’re trying to do, when it’s something you’ve never done before. Right. And your only experience is observing other people that have got this mastered on Instagram, or Facebook, and they have these complete sales funnels. It’s all automated. And it’s, you know, the, what do they call it? The, the money you don’t work for?

Sheila M  16:40  

Oh, passive income. Passive income. Yeah, that’s like a ton of work.

Exactly. I like the idea of passive like, it takes so many steps to get to that point. And I think like, for me, even just like this podcast is the perfect example. Because I was like, oh, like, I really want to do a podcast, because I just, I didn’t feel like the blog was landing in the same way as a conversation does. And so I was like, well just do this podcast. So I just need to be able to record. And then I need editing software. And then I just need like, a place to host the RSS feed. That’s it. But then it was like, oh, except that I need a process. You know, I and I’m, like, Miss, like, strategic. So I’m like, Well, I need like a standard standard operating procedure for like, the whole process that I’m going to do. So I have like, I literally have like project management software, where I track track every single step. And I’m like, people see a podcast, they don’t know, they were like, literally 12 steps. Until that was out. You know, it’s having the conversation with the guests like a filler conversation, and then the actual scheduling conversation, and sending them the email with all of the information and then actually doing the interview, and then editing the podcast, and then doing the transcript. Oh, my God, that is the part. brutal, like checking the transcript right now. And like, that’s the first thing I’m outsourcing, checking the transcripts. And then, you know, making the show notes, doing the graphics, doing the sound clips, then finally uploading it sending all the stuff to the guest. I’m like, there’s literally like 15 steps between me like scheduling someone and actually getting the podcast up and running.

Patty Ryan Lee  18:23  

And the brain space required to consider all of that, r

Sheila M  18:27  

right, less now b/c i have a system. 

Patty Ryan Lee  18:30  

Right? But it can only become a system once you start.

Sheila M  18:35  

Right. Exactly.

Patty Ryan Lee  18:37  

Exactly. That’s where a lot of people get tripped up. It’s, well, I need to have everything perfect before I can do anything. Yes. And I’m guilty of it in past. I mean, I’ve been a web developer for 20 plus years. And it scares the shit out of me to say hi, yes, I’m a web developer. 20 years of experience. Yeah. Like I used to dream in code. But I’m not good enough. Right? I have to show that I am perfection. Yeah, before I can ever get a client. Well, how do you get a client? Without doing the work? Like how does it’s a bad cycle that you get yourself into? 

Sheila M  19:17  

Yeah, and we all do this and and i think women or people who were socialized female growing up do it especially because we have this idea that we are somehow like less than or really, we’re socialized to believe that we’re less than, and we should always be in my supporting roles. And I still remember this conversation I had with my mom It was quite a few years ago now but she had been working at the same company that she had worked at, like since I was like born like she had been there for like 25 years. And they were closing down her office and they offered her the opportunity to move like to relocate or to like take a layoff and she was so um she was so upset because um, she She didn’t, she didn’t go to college, she went to a trade school and she had literally 25 years of experience. And she was like, she was like, I’m gonna get disqualified from all of these jobs because I don’t have a bachelor’s degree. And I was like, if you get disqualified by a company because you have 25 years of experience instead of a bachelor’s degree, you don’t want to work there. Like that is the place. No vision, and it’s ridiculous. Like that ridiculous thing to be worried about. How dare you?

Patty Ryan Lee  20:30  

Yes. And but it’s because I’ve always I bucked the system from a very young age. When I was in seventh grade, I convinced my mother to homeschool me. My gosh, bless her , I don’t know, she still doesn’t know how I did it. And it stuck, right? And I refuse to take the SAT ACTS refused. And it was like, Okay, well, then you’re going to have to, like stick with community college or whatever else. Like, that’s fine. I don’t want to be a number on somebody’s piece of paper. You know, and I don’t want a career. I always wanted to have like multiple jobs. I should have known better. And don’t want that too much. But I was like, I don’t want to fall in line with any system, especially. And I didn’t even understand the system I was in at the time. But I knew something did not mesh out there. With what I had going on inside me. I was like, This is not and it’s most people would say, well, you’re an Aquarius. I know of course you’re going buck. 

Sheila M  21:37  

Such an Aquarius right now. And I say that as somebody who in my life is very surrounded by Aquariuses

Patty Ryan Lee  21:49  

Oh, hell, I for the longest time I thought aquarians were water signs. Like, with the waves, you know? And I’m like, Yeah, what’s the

Sheila M  21:56  

well it’s the water water bearer? So it’s a little confusing,

Patty Ryan Lee  21:59  

right? I’m like, so of course, I’m gonna have like an a skewed version, and view of the world. In my own zodiac sign is like, what? Right? So yeah, astrology still escapes me. I’m trying. I’m trying to learn. How do you keep this all together? I’ll stick with code.

Sheila M  22:25  

Excited. Let’s talk about that part of it a little bit, because I understand the web developer part. But what kind of brought on the websites for witches? Like when did you get into all of the witchy or stuff and like, you know, being more into the woo of it all?

Patty Ryan Lee  22:44  

Oh, I’ve always been a witch. I’ve always been accused of being a witch. Yeah. And it’s like, Are you are you because I was like, the goth kid when I was in school. I was the creepy kid. You know, I was the one always in black. Are you going to a funeral want to make it yours kind of person. And, you know, I was always struggling with my identity and all of this. And I really, really rejected religion. My father was raised Catholic. My mother was raised Protestant, Irish Catholic, English Protestant.

Sheila M  23:22  

I was like that sounds like a war right there.

Patty Ryan Lee  23:27  

We used to always joke. My mom would want to go to church for the music and the community. And my dad would sit there, like, closed off, arms folded skin crawling. Like, ugh, because he had pretty much stepped away from the church. Law Long, long ago. And with my sister who’s 10 years, my senior, love you Emily. She was she was the hippy. She was the witch. She was the one with the tarot cards. And she was the cool sister, right? She’s a leo, like,

Sheila M  24:04  

oh my gosh she’s me. I I’m a cool sister. I’m the tarot card reading sister. Oh my gosh. I’m looking at my baby sister right now. And she’s an Aquarius.

Patty Ryan Lee  24:16  

See, there we go. And we have that total opposite thing. 

Sheila M  24:19  

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Let’s continue. Sorry.

Patty Ryan Lee  24:24  

Oh, she was always you know, with the tarot cards in the witchy in the ouiji board. Okay, creepy. My dad is just like he would raise everything wholly up that he still believed in. And so I witnessed him with that in the occult, and I witnessed my mom just want the music. My mom loves music, loves gospel music, especially and wanting that sense of community. And yet, I’m the one sitting in I can remember what it’s called anymore. But where you sit and you get preached at when you look up If I felt like I was in an overturned boat, and I was looking up at the hull of the ship, like the with the Gothic arches and the way it’s designed, I’m like, I feel like I’m in an capsized boat. I feel like I’m in Poseidon, which is my my dad’s favorite movies. I’m like, I can’t be the only one feeling this right now. Right? There’s something wrong. And it was a very young age, I realized that what they were saying up front. Everybody down in the pews. Everybody heard something different. Because I am not hearing what y’all hear.

Sheila M  25:35  

Same. My parents would be like, like, that was great. Like, yeah, what? are you kidding me? That was so uncomfortable. And also it always, I think from the time I was really young, even before I understood everything about myself. Now, I always thought it was weird to like go through, like in Catholicism, you have to like everything goes through the priest or like the Pope, you know, like, like the only Oh, yeah, it’s something you can’t pray. But like, everything important has to come from like a priest. And to me, even as a kid that was always like, fucked up. Like, I just, I never got it. I never connected with it. And it never felt like the truth to me. And then, on top of that, of the political stuff with the church, like, even when I was young just made me uncomfortable. Like, I don’t like I’m very, I think I have like, a problem with authority. And like the second somebody’s like, don’t do this thing. And I’m like, Well, I didn’t want to have sex. But now I do.

Patty Ryan Lee  26:37  

What? Why don’t show me a red button. Or I’m going to want to press exactly button.

Sheila M  26:44  

Now I just love this stuff. Yes.

Patty Ryan Lee  26:47  

Yeah. And because we moved around, we went to Presbyterian churches, we went to Methodist. We never went through like a pure, proper Catholic Church. I think my dad probably just was like, No, I’m staying home. He stayed on most of them anyway. But, um, I was carted off to Sunday school, while they did like the regular thing. And I never understood that. I was like, Why do I have to go in this little room? And then they didn’t like that. I asked questions. Like, what? And why? Wait a minute. I thought he was I thought there were nails involved. He wasn’t just tied. No, no, no, honey, we don’t we don’t talk about I’m like, why am I getting a different story? Seven, why am I getting a different story? And it’s like, I don’t I don’t get this at all. So when I finally could voice I think it was in my late teens. I was like, I have to be at work. I can’t go. I’m tired. I’m done. I stopped we I stopped going. mom kept going. And then she got sick of the politics and you have to bring food and tithing. And isn’t that just like, screw this. But it’s like, I’m done. And I started picking up my own tarot deck and perusing the occult section of you know, the entire bookshelf that it was in Barnes and Noble at the time. Oh my god, with Silver Ravenclaw books. I think what’s your name? Was all Wicca. And I was like, Is this all there is like, is that it? There’s just Wicca. There’s nothing else. Like I don’t want another religion. Like, okay, so I guess I’m not a witch. And that was just like, I was just, I’m a theist, I guess. I don’t know what I am. But the witch is the closest thing right? Yeah. So I finally just leaned into it. And it was after I gave, I was pregnant with my son. And, ah, when you’re filling out the hospital documents for admission, you have to fill out your religion. And I just wrote, witch – just if something happens to you, they want to know if that makes sense.

Sheila M  29:10  

Yeah, there’s, there’s rules about people’s bodies and stuff and like how they should be treated and stuff. So I get it. Okay. I’m like, I’m like weird.

Patty Ryan Lee  29:20  

It was it First of all, like, Oh, we let make sense. Okay. Yeah. But the fact that I filled it out without thinking about it. Mm hmm. I was like, Oh, shit. I scribbled it out real quick. I’m like, I don’t want I want they’re probably going to get somebody wiccan in here. And I don’t want that. And to what they even know what the hell it meant, or would it make them run scared? Like, what would your judgment I’m about to go and give birth? And I’m worried about this, what I scribbled it out and just put agnostic. And yeah, so after giving birth, I should say my child. They they kind of put a I don’t know a kick in my ass to really be true to myself. Yeah, it’s like, I have to model. How am I supposed to honor who they’re gonna be if I can’t honor who I am. Yeah, and it was a whole thing re parenting the whole thing. Like, so far Oh, shit. I was like, I don’t recommend it. I love my child. I love my job. But if there is a glimmer of doubt about having kids don’t do it. Because they don’t tell you this part. Right. So yeah, and I just really started to just like, you know what, fuck it. I am a witch. Yeah. And then, like, so much fell into place after that and became so much easier. It was astounding. Yeah, how much more relaxed in myself, I felt. And I’m trying to figure out what to do for business. Like I’m trying to take on I inherited my family’s dotcom. I’m a woman. I hate scales. Okay. No, thank you. Like, I know how to properly calibrate them and do that is like, I know. I think this is not mine. This is not my baby, right? Mom’s like, then let it go. Like, full on Elsa. Let it go. 

Sheila M  31:23  

Yeah, seriously, 

Patty Ryan Lee  31:25  

And like, it took me like three years to finally convince myself. I was like, Okay, so what do I do? What do I do? Okay, you have to niche down or niche down. I haven’t made a website for anybody other than myself in 10 years, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? So I started reading, you know, you have to consume everything before you can take a step. You have to consume this that make sure you’re taking the next right step. And I want to book about niching down, and I’m reading this gun. What the fuck am I supposed to do make websites for witches? And I could feel the heat from the bulb over my head. I’m like, I just got I was like, I threw my hands up in the air. About near threw the ebook out of my hands is like, Oh my god, can I do that? Why the fuck not? Yeah. I was like, do witches need websites? Oh, girl.

Yes, I do. Yes, they do. Yes, I can tell you that right now. Um, I love that.I love like how that came up. Because I feel like that’s always what happens when people are like, Wait, can I really do this? Like, can I actually make a living doing this thing that like is this crazy idea that popped into my head? I’m so I know you kind of describe yourself on top of that. As a tarot reader? Did you learn Tarot from your sister? Like, what kind of and how long have you been reading? 

So I’ve been reading since I was about 1415. Okay. And often on a she used to do a full 32 card spread. And she never read the cards, like intuitively she write everything out of a book. And each card had a position that had a meeting. And ah, and it was fascinating to watch. So I got the book in my late teens. And I was reading through and I got a deck at Barnes and Noble  – a kit thing that they had at the time. I was like, Can I do this? No one is stopping me? Okay, so, and I started playing with it, and it was all pips. So you had the court cards and you had your major and then you just had five coins for five coins. It’s like, how does anybody memorize this? Because there’s nothing to go off of. I had never seen the rider Waite deck. Yeah, Pamela Smith deck. I had never seen that. And it’s like, what the hell? So I did a couple of readings for friends. That turned out to be on point and it’s like, oh, usually negative. And, like, okay, we’re gonna put that way for a while and not always get back into it. Cuz somebody’s like, oh, read the cards. Okay, sure. And my dad Of course, he’d walked into the room with the blessing, you know, like blessing himself. You only pulled up the blessing when the Luigi board came out? Oh, yeah. I can’t blame him on that. And I was a kid. It moved on me and I wasn’t near it was like it was across the room. I was like, oh, and our house was haunted as fuck. That’s like a portal. I yeah, I don’t we had we had one pass down. So it’s like, oh, we’re good. 

And tarot I’ve always had and I’ve always dabbled with, and I’ve always tried to make a consistent practice with it. But if you force it, it does. Work has always been my experience. So I let it come, I let it go when I needed to comes when I don’t need it. I don’t. And then when I met my now husband, I was like, Okay, well, this is getting serious. I think it’s time that I show him. I do this weird shit 

Sheila M  35:26  

I love this so much. 

Patty Ryan Lee  35:28  

Just test the waters. So I pulled out my cards, and I pulled out the book, you know, and it’s all wrapped up in the silk. Cuz, you know, like, when you think about this, he’s like, Oh, that’s cool. Let me show you the sigil that I drew, that I’ve had this psychic tribe. and I’m Like, wait a minute, okay, so I know that you kind of like we’re okay with, like horoscopes and this and that, but like, you’re into it. Sweet!

Sheila M  35:59  


Patty Ryan Lee  36:01  

 Yeah. And that was? Yeah, I mean, it was. We were destined, quote, unquote, to be so it kind of, but it was like, Here’s Your out. 

Sheila M  36:11  

Oh, my gosh, that’s so funny. 

Patty Ryan Lee  36:14  

And still didn’t play with them all that much. And then we went to a Halloween party about nine or 10 years ago. And I was inappropriately dressed. Let’s just put it that way. And brought my cards. And I spent four hours doing readings non stop. And I was freaking myself out with how accurate they were. And the people around me. And then like I started hearing other things. I’m like, I don’t know what this is. I don’t want to now. We’re not doing that. I’ve not had enough to drink for this. And I was like tripping high as a kite. euphoric for days afterwards. I do this for a living because this is like who? I was like, wait a minute, can I do this for a living? Am I any good? So then it went into Okay, now I have to study? Yep. And okay, so I started getting more books. And as I read these books, like, I never saw that in this card. What the hell? I must be doing this completely wrong. Yeah, I put them away for a while. And we’ll get the cards out. Okay, sure. Holy fuck. How did you know that? Well, I don’t know. Yeah. Cool. So when you had your course I’m like, Okay. Do I need another round of study? She’s, she’s not the whole study thing, right? It’s, do you have a meaning for the card? That’s the meaning. And it was so liberating. It was the first time I’d actually gotten like, an outside education and resource for it. And it was so liberating to know. I know what the fuck I’m doing. Because it’s not just the car.

Sheila M  38:11  

Yeah, your face when I said that in the q&a was like, it was like the my like the mind blown emoji? Yes. That’s like, yeah, like that’s the whole purpose. Like, yes. Does the card have like an objective meaning that most Tarot scholars or whatever have agreed on? Sure. But that is way less relevant because to me, and in the readings that I’ve done, what stands out even more are the times where it is like a complete departure from even like, my own definition of the card. Like when I see a card and just right away, like something comes into my brain. I’m like, Oh, that’s weird. That’s really important. Like, that’s not what that means. But that’s really important.

Patty Ryan Lee  38:50  

And but just to now have like the permission. Yeah, to do that was just like, oh, so then even when I was just doing like, the freebie fun things I would do on Instagram. It’s like, I’m not gonna argue with it anymore. Like, here it is. And I pulled up a card. I was like, Alright, this means fuck you pay me for somebody. And somebody messaged me, the next day is like, yeah, that was for me. Like, I don’t have anything right now. I’m waiting in you know, I’m unemployed. I mean, the next day, I have a job offer. There you go.

Sheila M  39:26  

I’m telling you, I it’s very funny with Tarot because I usually find that it’s like a look at just a teensy bit ahead sometimes for people. And so they’ll be like, okay, okay, like, that makes sense. That makes sense. You know, and, and like, it’s not like totally connecting, and then people will text me, like, a week later, or like two weeks later, and they’re like, How did you know? Like, that was so weird. Which I think is really funny about Tarot, because I’m always like, I tell and I tell people like, if you’re reading for someone else, like they may not always have the reaction in the moment. When you’re reading, it’s usually on like a little bit of a delay. And now I’ve gotten used to that. But in the beginning, it was terrifying. And in particular when you’re talking because I, I know what you’re talking about with like reading for people online. Originally, I was just doing email readings. And so I had this experience of like, people just asking a question, and then we pulling a bunch of cards and like sending them an email back. And I was like, I think there’s no context to this, like, we’re not having a conversation, which is like what I do in sessions now. It’s just like, if you asked me a question to me blindly telling you what I think. And people would email me back after those readings and be like, holy shit, how did you know all of this stuff? Like this is? Like, there is no way you could have known from the question I was asking. And it was just like, for, you know, I wouldn’t even have the person’s like, full information. And I was like, okay, maybe there’s something to this. Like, maybe I just got to kind of like, let it you know, like you said, Let it go. Let it go. Just what’s there. You know?

Patty Ryan Lee  41:02  

 that’s why for the longest time, I could only read while drinking. Ah, yes. libation. And it’s like, I had one reader go, you don’t need to do that. He’s like, get relaxed, on your own. lean into it. You know what you’re doing? Yeah, yeah. Filter gone.

Sheila M  41:27  

Yeah. And it takes a while to feel comfortable with that, especially when you’re reading for other people. When you’re reading for yourself, it’s like a completely different experience. And you can kind of call your own bullshit. But like, when you’re when you’re reading for other people, like, you don’t always get the feedback. And some people are very, like stone faced. So you can’t really rely on it. And you shouldn’t really Anyway, you should just kind of read what you see. Because you’re responding to somebody like face, like, you might second guess yourself. So I would say like, stay stay in the zone. You know, I had this woman come in for a reading. And I was pulling cards for and like, literally three times the Justice card came up. And I was like, I don’t know what’s going on. I was like, we were doing a career reading. And like in three different polls that came up and I was like, I was like, Are you looking for a legal profession? I was like, the Justice keeps coming up. And I don’t know if it’s that, like, fairness is like this, like sense of like equity and like fairness is really important are like assessing what’s fair is really important. But like, I just keep seeing that Justice card. And I feel like it’s very, like it’s at the core of everything you do. And she’s like, well, I’m, I’m a judge. And the whole time, she’s been like super stone faced. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, This makes much more sense now. keeps coming up. So that’s why like, it’s very funny when when stuff like that happens, because I’m like, this is so literal, like, y’all literal right now. And that’s why it’s so important to like, pay attention to that intuitive impulse.

Patty Ryan Lee  42:58  

Yes. And do you notice and I’ve noted because I for the longest time, I only had the two decks, I had the one that was just pips. And then I had the Robin wood, they finally had imagery. And I built a relationship with this deck. And it does not like the public eye. So it stopped working for a while. I was like, What the hell is this?

Sheila M  43:16  

My Coleman Smith rider Waite doesn’t like readings for other people. So I never like I use that deck personally. But it does not work very well for other people. So like you won’t see it on my Instagram and stuff or on my pick a cards, because it just doesn’t like people.

Patty Ryan Lee  43:31  

Like this is why you need to connect with other readers or from other readers. Because for the longest time, I thought it was like What the hell is going on? Is it what is happening here? So I started buying other decks, which I thought I would never do. And now I own way too many. 

Sheila M  43:50  


Patty Ryan Lee  43:51  

Like the Modern Witch. That is my deck of reversals. Yes. As we show it is my deck of reversals, like nine out of 10 pulls is reversed. And it is the most literal of decks that I have ever had in my life.

Sheila M  44:12  

I do find it in my readings to to also be pretty literal, which I think is interesting.

Patty Ryan Lee  44:17  

Okay. That’s fascinating. That is fascinating to me.

Sheila M  44:22  

And I use it a lot for other people’s readings.

Patty Ryan Lee  44:26  

Yes, yeah. Yeah, I used it. When I was doing it for the general public for my questions from the Tarot. I was like, Oh, shit, can I actually ask this question?

Sheila M  44:38  

I know, I know. I used forever I used Um, so my most commonly used one right after I first started other than the Coleman Smith rider Waite was the Star Child Tarot, which I used for literally like, two three years like for my own readings and for client readings and stuff and recently, I noticed that It just, I was having a it was so weird. It was almost like I was having like a mental block. I wrote a blog post about it about breaking up with a tarot deck. And I was saying how I was just having a really hard time reading it for some reason. Yeah. And like it had always, like, clicked right away when I read for other people. And I was like, something is going on here. Where like, it’s just not as easy to read anymore. And I’m not quite sure why. And so I shifted to another deck, of course, at first because of imposter syndrome. I was like, Oh my God, I’ve lost it. You know, like, I don’t have it anymore. You know, I’m no longer psychic

Patty Ryan Lee  45:39  

like it’s aa tangible thing that you can buy at the store

Sheila M  45:42  

exactly. Exactly. Um, and then I was like, Oh, wait, no, it’s still fine. It’s just, I think it’s just this deck. So I’ve been like on a little bit of a timeout, I still love it. Like, I still love that deck. But I’ve been using the Modern Witch in my readings for other people a lot. And it is, it is so interesting, because it is, I do find it to be like very like literal, which I think it’s like very fun. Like I they all have like a little personality, which I think is interesting. Even though iyou know as I say all the time, the cards aren’t magical. They’re an inanimate object, you know?

Hey there, I wanted to remind you that this is a great time of year to get a career ahead tarot reading, this reading will give you a full view of the year ahead in your business or career. It’ll enlighten you as to the stories that you’re telling yourself about your work in business. It’s a full Look what feels true, what is true, and how to work through doubt and imposter syndrome. We’ll talk about what obstacles you may be coming up against so that you can be prepared to meet them, and how to play to your strengths, and where to focus your energy. Your session will be fully collaborative and offer you the opportunity to weigh your options and evaluate different career paths and offers. This reading is designed to empower you to make career choices that offer you the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion. And to consider things you might not have. clients who’ve had one of these sessions with me have been able to analyze job offers aligned new services and products with their value, and things like the timing to roll them out. And felt empowered to negotiate five figure salary increases. This is the perfect time of year for this type of reading. And I don’t have a ton of availability around the holidays. So if you are interested, make sure you head on over to the show notes and look into booking a session today.

Patty Ryan Lee  47:47  

I think it’s I don’t know if it’s the imagery because I like because then I immediately go to the psychology of the imagery they used and the colors and all of this. So is it that so how we approach the deck because I have another deck. I had a friend over for reading. And I was like, Okay, do you want the kinder gentler deck for this? Or do you want like the Absolute Truth? And she’s like, well, let’s start here. And it’s very nice, elegant kind of deck. Simple. And it’s like, okay, like the message message is harsh. But it’s pretty. concrete. 

Sheila M  48:23  

I know. And I do I have some that are very, like direct and some that are like a little bit more gentle. And I will pay attention to that when I’m coming into. If I’m like, Oh, I’m feeling really raw today, I’m gonna like you. Nice to me, I’m gonna use this one. Because it’s a little more soothing, you know, and it’s not lying to yourself, but like, sometimes you can’t take the tough love,

Patty Ryan Lee  48:46  

you know? You have to connect with that imagery, I think. Yeah, yeah. So how,

Sheila M  48:54  

how does your intuition kind of show up? And not just in your readings, but also in your business? Because I know you’re kind of in the process right now of of reworking the wellspring, and that’s been very intuitively led. So what, what really inspired that for you, and and what, um, what made you decide to kind of shift things that way.

Patty Ryan Lee  49:20  

I’m actually going closer to what I had originally wanted to do. But was talked out of which I think you hear a lot with people with intuition. It’s like my gut said to do this. And I was like, okayed, out of it. It’s like, it works, and I like it. But this is not me, this is not what I want. So we’re gonna go back and flow with the original plan, and that gut check and it felt good in the body. And just do and it’s like, the more in line I get with, my body feels because I’m learning to sense the intuition in my body? Like how does it feel? You know, cuz that has always been a disconnect cuz it’s always just been, you know you’re in the grocery store Oh, the alarms gonna go off? Fuck, fuck it went off. You know, what did I not get tagged? Right? That kind of annoying little while it’s not a voice but you can hear it in your head, I don’t know how else to describe it. And now I’m learning to sense it within the body so I can recognize, oh, this is what this means.

Sheila M  50:29  

Yeah. And I think I talked about that in my high priestess embodiment course because especially when you’re first starting out with intuition. I mean, you’re kind of late in the game, you know, like years ago, it would have been much easier for you. But it’s funny because like, I always say like, the first step is to be able to recognize it in your physical body, because that’s what’s going to tip the scale between all the doubt that we feel when we have an illogical quote unquote, impulse. Yeah, um, and when that happens, if you can tune into the physical sensation, so initially, I would have, like, I would have like a real sensation, like in my chest like, right like at like my sternum, which was like a yes or a no, and they felt different. And then it changed. It changed a little over time. And so now, at like an I am having like a very untraditional shuffler. If you’ve ever had a reading with me that is not normal. Like, I tell people all the time, like, this is a really weird way to do things. But I don’t just shuffle the cards and then like, draw out the top 10 or whatever it is. I keep shuffling until it feels like the right card, which like I literally get like a chill in my body. And then I stopped and I flipped, because people people who come in for readings will watch me do it. And they’re like, how did you know it’s that card? I’m like, I don’t know. I just feel it. Like I just yeah, I’m just used to it now. And then sometimes I’ll get like a head nod or a head shake. Like sometimes if I just like, Listen for a second. I’ll get like a nod or and say, Yeah,

Patty Ryan Lee  52:12  

I’d get like calm. Yeah, it’s just like this pure pindrop split second of just pure calm, which is not something I have much in my life. It’s like, oh, oh, I need to pay attention to that.  Oh, okay. And I’ll stop shuffling or a card will fall out at that time. And it’s like, Oh, okay. I’m having a conversation. And all of a sudden, I’ll go from palpitations to calm and it’s like, oh, okay, here we go. And it’s just a deep calm. I don’t know how to describe it. Cuz I’m not like a very calm as I shake, like jazz hands all over the place. I’m not kidding. This is audio only.

Sheila M  53:04  

It’s hard because we are technically looking at each other. So it makes sense. But yeah, and variously my partner is an Aquarius, and I we’re always talking about like Aquarius, Leo, thank you and I, but my partner is an Aquarius, and I know Gemini rising and it’s always like talking with his hands. Like, whenever we would like to eat I’d be like, Oh, you’re gonna slap the waitress? Like, talk with your hands less, you know?

Patty Ryan Lee  53:36  

Yeah, I yeah. And it’s my husband can always go. Are you excited about something? Exactly. Very, very movie. Right? Like, it’s going up? Yeah. I love

Sheila M  53:50  

Yeah, I love the way that you talked about, like your intuition, like showing up physically. I did an interview that’s coming out two weeks from when this episode airs with Eliza swan. Who wrote anatomy of the aura. And she, um, she talks about how we were talking about Clairaudience because I have like a lot of auditory stuff. And she was saying for her Clairaudience, I am trying to remember how she said it. She said, it’s like, there’s someone talking at the bottom of a well, in the middle of her brain. She’s like, it’s sounds like there’s like a muscle like at the bottom of the well in the middle of my brain. I was like, Oh my gosh, yes.

Patty Ryan Lee  54:33  

Oh my gosh. Like I am stunned because now it’s like trying to remember. Yeah. Oh, I’ll have to pay more attention to that now. 

Sheila M  54:43  

Yeah, yeah. It’s so fascinating. Yeah. 

Patty Ryan Lee  54:48  

Whoo. I like that.

Sheila M  54:50  

And I often find for me, and it’s a little bit different for me because I, um, you know, sometimes it will be like the lack of sound like you said, like, you Find that like stillness. So sometimes he has I am very auditory. Sometimes it will be like there’s a lack of sound. And I’m like, Oh, what’s that? I have to like, signal to like pause and listen for a second because it’s like, the entire world’s been like turned way down.

Patty Ryan Lee  55:16  

Mm hmm. That’s interesting. Because I sometimes I’ll just blurt out things that I just know. I don’t know where that came from. But apparently I know that, because it’s like, Did I hear it before I said it, but I think it before I said it, I have to pay attention. Because now that I’m learning to pay attention, yeah. Like, where is that happening? So that I can tap into that more. But my problem is that my intuition is usually Bad. Bad things.

I hear this a lot. And I’m, I’m curious about it, because I’ve heard it from a couple different people. And then like, what is that because every once in a while, I will get something that’s quote unquote, bad. So when you say bad, what do you mean?

miscarriages, divorces, deaths. Um, you know, the alarms gonna go off, fascism is going to rise in the United States, that kind of thing. 

Sheila M  56:22  

So, okay, this is interesting question about this. And I think that when it is something like that, and I talked about this again, in in the High Priestess thing, I think that often when it is something that is like a threat, or like something dangerous, which again, is different for different people, and people would learn from experiences, people of color. People have like a different lived experience. It’s it’s different, though. Yeah. But it’s always the things where we assess danger, that seems to be louder and easier to recognize, you know what I mean? So it might just be that you’re more aware of that initially, then some of the other stuff, too.

Patty Ryan Lee  57:05  

That is interesting. I will have to pay attention to that. Because it’s, yeah, because and actually, that makes a lot of sense. Because the more I’m aware of my own anxieties of my now that I’m I had to go to therapy to realize that I actually had trauma in my life. I was like, This isn’t normal. No, honey, this is this is this is not normal. Like, that’s what happens. Everybody doesn’t live in this constant state of panic. That’sa weird. Wait, I had a traumatic childhood. Really? Oh, oh. Oh, wow. Okay. And since I’m aware of all of these things, now, ignorance is really bliss. That’s all. I was like, uh, let me be cipher with my medium rare steak in the matrix and just put me back in. But at the same time, No, I’m good. Now that I’m aware of that, in my anxieties. And what is that and learning now to decipher the intuition? Where in the body? Is this bad? No, this is this is like you said a warning. Okay. I’m aware now, there’s actually less of it. A more attention to that. This is, as I tell my friends, this is my year of paying attention to my body.

Sheila M  58:23  

Yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah. And also, yeah, sometimes what can help too is like choosing something lower stakes. So one of the things we do is I could give, I could not give any less of a shit about fantasy sports of any kind. But we will play a game sometimes where we see whose team does better. Now, do I know anything about any teams? No, I do not. I do not. I don’t know anything about fantasy golf. I don’t know what’s happening. But we will play each other where one of us is obsessed and knows everything about everything. And one of us is just you know, me. And it’s been very interesting, because last year, last August, we went to Ireland. And it was kind of a ploy, because my partner is really into golf and wanted to see the British Open, which was in Northern Ireland. Oh, and I had never, I’d never been to, or Well, we had been one time to Northern Ireland, but I hadn’t spent like a lot of time there. So I was like, Okay, cool. So we went to the British Open. And when we were on the way there, he was, like, I want to place it that like Who do you think I should bet on and he was going through all of like, the top people like, I mean, like the top like 30 people or something that we’re gonna win. And I was like, No, no, no, no, no, it’s got to be one of these people. And I was like, it’s not just like, it’s nobody that you said. And then he just like gave up on me and like, picked somebody that he wanted to pick. And then it ended up being this guy that was from Ireland and was like, if you would place a bet on him. We won so much money. I don’t know. about sports out 64 to one or something like, oh, wow, the longest long shot for this guy to win. And what was hilarious is that not so hilarious at the time, but I sprained my ankle the day before we went and if you’ve ever been to a golf event, you know, a lot, a lot of walking, and a lot of road walking. And so I was and I’ve never, I’ve never like truly, like badly sprained my ankle, except for this time. And it’s so bad. Everybody was like were you drunk? I was like, No, I, we were literally on the bar, like, on our way to the bar the first night to like, have one beer and go to bed because we were so good legs. And I liked it. I there was like an uneven curve, and I just twisted it. And as soon as I did, I was like, Oh, it’s so bad. But anyway, we’re,we’re walking around and halfway through the day, I was like, I am in so much pain, like, I need to sit down, I need to have a drink. Like they’re so starting to drizzle. Like this is like, I was just like having like a Leo drama, hissy fit. And my partner’s like, Oh, no, no, it’s okay. Like, there’s a champagne tent over here. Like he was like your champagne intent. And I was like, fine. So going to the champagne. And what I am expecting in the champagne tend not to be sexist. But what I’m expecting the champagne tent is to basically be all the women that are at the event, which I guess is my problem, because I go right. And it’s a bunch of like, bro old guys in there together, just like splitting bottles of champagne, watching on these watching on these giant TVs. And I was like, it’s this real life. Like, what is happening right now?

So he gets me some champagne. And I’m like, sitting in this one chair at this table with another couple and these, you know, two sets of like, dude, best friend old guys. And we’re watching on the screen. He’s like, I’m gonna go out and watch, you know, so and so tee off like, and there was Wi Fi at the event. So we could text each other on WhatsApp. So he’s out there for a while and I’m watching. And this, they start showing the guy like the guy who wins, I’m seeing him. And I texted I texted my partner and I was like, Hey, I think we should go over to 14 and see this guy. I was like, you know, I just like I have a feeling about this. And he was just like, I mean, the last day he just like, climbed right right up the standings. I mean, it was like, all these people were doing crappy. And he just climbed right up. He was like, How did you know? Like, how did you know that? I was like, I don’t know. I just like look, oh, no, you know, like, it’s sometimes with the lower stakes stuff where you don’t give a shit at all. It’s just very easy to see because you’re not putting like that pressure. And there’s also not that fear where you’re like, where your body’s like, Oh my god, I’m not safe. Like now I need the internet and

Patty Ryan Lee  1:02:54  

well, it’s we were on our way to a wedding and, and it was just a flippin statement out the door. I was like I gave it two years. And like 22 months later, she’s on my door in tears getting a divorce. Yep. And I was like, Mm hmm. And I’ve been able to call this individuals relationships, every single one. And I feel really bad. I was like, This is because I did a reading for him. I was like, This is the person you need to be with. And he brought somebody over once. I was like, wait a minute, because it was the key difference was an age difference. I was like, that’s not it. And I did their engagement pictures. It wasn’t a tog refer at the time. And like two weeks after I did the pictures, they were broken up. I’m like, Why don’t y’all just listen. It’s the bad shit. It’s the bad stuff.

Sheila M  1:03:55  

Listen, I trust me when I say no, cuz sometimes I like at something and I’m like, cool. I want to know that.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:04:02  

Yeah. In case it does come and hit cuz the one that really stands out is you know, 17 we were in Alabama and looking to buy a house. I we my parents were looking to buy a house. I was dragged along. And we walked into this one house. And I was standing in the kitchen. I was talking to the realtor. I was like, Did anybody ever die on this house? Like there’s just this feeling right? Just like no, not that I’m aware of the last guy, the CIA agent or whatever. It’s like, Okay. Yeah, half later, that was the same spot My father died. Oh, that’s so freaky. exact spot. Oh, it’s so weird. So it’s like, holy shit. What was that? And then fast forward. You know, I’m really good with real estate now. So we go house hunting with my mom, and up here in Ohio. And I’m like, I walk into a house and I just had to say Alabama and we’re like, turn tail and go. We’re not getting this. She thought, because I told her I was like, there’s something wrong with this house. I don’t know if it’s the house, there’s just I just I don’t know, right? There’s just she thought I was just being, you know, like a stubborn 16 year old that just didn’t want to be in this space. I didn’t like the house was like, No, there was something wrong here.

Now she listens.

Sheila M  1:05:30  

I was gonna say so. So with everything that like that. How, how did your family of origin respond to that? Like, are they on board? Are they just kind of like, Oh, it’s this weird thing that we like kind of acknowledged, but like, we don’t really talk about? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:05:47  

Oh, no, no, now it’s, it’s, I mean, especially since that it’s been like, so what’s your feeling on this Patty? Like, what? What? What do you what do you think you know, what’s your gut tell you? And it’s like, because I was always raised to listen to your gut, listen to your gut. And experience told me otherwise. It was like, Okay, well, here’s my gut reaction. Well, no, not not now. Now doesn’t count as like, Okay. And now it’s okay. No, seriously, what do you feel like? Are you okay, this is good, like, with the cards, so I was just gonna be, and they’re very receptive to it. And I mean, my I didn’t learn this. I don’t learn the family secrets until after everybody dies. But great. my great grandparents on my mother’s side were masons, and they did seances, and all kinds of shit, and very, like supernatural kinds of things. And it’s like, you could have told me? Yeah, I like there’s an actual connection here. Right? Why? Yep. No, I don’t find anything out until after people die. And then it’s random on the phone. Like, Oh, you didn’t know that. NO

Sheila M  1:07:05  

I know I love like, the way things are like mentioned, I’m like, excuse me.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:13  

And they’re like, oh, that explains so much. Why did we talk about it? 

Sheila M  1:07:17  

Everybody acts like a weirdo, you know? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:19  

Yeah. And then that’s the thing. Do you ever notice though, it’s like, you pick up on the details? Nobody else does. But the obvious shit is just like, yep, nope, not didn’t see it.

Sheila M  1:07:31  

 Yeah. Yeah, happens all the time. Um, so how does your How does your intuition kind of come into play in your business now? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:43  

Oh, client red flags. Like I have those down to a science. It’s, I can tell within minutes of talking with someone. Nope. You’re gonna cost me this much money. You’re gonna cost me this much time. This is not going to be a successful project. And I want no part of it. And now I have the guts to actually say that in the past. But now it’s like, you know what? We’re not for each other. Thank you move on. But I’ve also really this year been diving into my y, which is also a framework, I’m introducing to the wellspring. To really get clear on that, to even head off that at the pass like this. I don’t even get it now. Like, people don’t even approach me now. So I don’t know if it’s something I’m putting out there. Or if I’m doing remarketing, right, like, no snow for you. Yeah, and then move on. Yes.

Sheila M  1:08:43  

And you, you tested it, you did like a test of your whole process on me, which was really interesting. Because, again, and it’s funny how intuition works. Like I was doing all of this stuff that was in alignment with my why. I just didn’t know what my whyy was. But everything kind of like was circling around this one thing. And we had this whole conversation. And it was so eye opening to me, because it’s not again, the technology piece is amazing. And it’s super helpful. And like you said, it feels like insurance to my business. And the knowing my why was really interesting. And it was fascinating to me when you said like you’ve done all of this development over the years, and the people who were still in business who were still, you know, successful and doing other stuff, were the people who knew their why and kind of come back to it over and over and to me, now again, like you’re saying, it’s like the big stuff that you’re just like glazed over and I’m like, Ah, this is so important. Like how did I not? How did I not start out here? Like it is the undercurrent that runs under everything I do. And there is this GIF meme throughout everything. But I think I wasn’t noticing it so much.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:09:57  

It’s like that one layer maybe of intuition that you’re not tapped into. It’s like, I’m learning to feel it in my body. But I’ve maybe always known it in business. And it’s like, not really, because I’m just now like, oh, it took me this long to realize this is what I want to do when I grew up, but but at the same time, I’ve been doing everything I wanted to do when I grew up. Yeah. And I’ve been making the choices based on my God. To follow through on those, I always want to be a teacher. And I’ve always been in positions where I was teaching. You know, I’ve always want to be an architect. I’m in a position now where I’m building things. Yep. Right. And it’s there. We just maybe don’t tap into it the same way. Because it’s not the same box. Like I’m not building. My plan was to build a question and centers. I’m not doing that. But I’m still building something. Right? Yeah. And understanding that the Why is very much in your past illuminates the path that you’ve been on. It’s like, suddenly, you can see that light that thread and go, okay. When did it veer off? When did it fork? That’s when I didn’t listen to my gut. Yes. Okay, so when I got back on that path, that’s when I was listening to my gut. And if you listen to your gut the whole time, I’ve never met anybody that did it. Maybe Oprah, I don’t know. But if you follow your gut the whole time, you go on the path that you need to and want to. And that’s, to me that’s been over this past year, the fascination that I’ve had, and apparently, it’s a 12th house perfection thing. I’m just learning. Thank you, Diana. And it’s and it’s Yeah. And I, my mind went off that path as well. So you have to put me back on it. I tend to my brain goes in one direction, my mouth goes in another because I write right I most of the work that I do is through writing. And it’s why we’re a Slack channel for the wellspring because I have to I have to focus it into the written word. it I love it so much. And

Sheila M  1:12:16  

no, you’re we were just kind of talking about the why kind of running, running through everything and how it does. It really keeps you on track. I you know, it’s funny, like you were saying, Tanya, my friend, Tanya Gallagher, who is in Episode Two of the podcast, where like, she’s really the embodiment of the fool card, because she just has the ability to like surrender to all of these crazy things that I would have said no to Every single one, like an even l like being her friend, when she was going through a lot of these things. I was like, Are you crazy? Like, I was like, This is insane. You’re like that whole episode, if you haven’t listened to that episode you should listen through. And it’s a special kind of person like to be able to do that. Like I’m like, this is so in opposition to the wit to my temperament and the way that my personality is like, I just have such a hard time with this. I feel like now i have i’ve really evolved with that. And now I do have like, especially this year, and like if there’s, if there was every year that would turn everybody into the fool. It’s like 2020 because like, I mean, if you can’t surrender, you’re pretty much fucked this year.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:13:31  

Like you can’t you have to just be like, all right, this is what we’re doing. There is such a sweet release in surrendering. Sometimes it’s like, it’s hard to do. It’s so difficult to do, because I’m a control freak. I want to control every aspect. But then you get to the point, it’s like, I have no control over this.

Sheila M  1:13:56  

whether we think we have control or think we don’t have control, we have the same amount of control over everything. Like it doesn’t matter we always haveThe exact amount of control. I like that’s what I have to remind myself and I start getting like crazy because I do I can get like, I’m like I need to do this, this and this. You know what I mean? And then I’m like, Oh, yeah, stop that. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:14:17  

Yep. Doom scrolling all Yeah, yeah, no, I want to control.

Sheila M  1:14:24  

Okay, so this is really funny because I I always, um, I always pull cards from my deck. Like in the morning, some people it’s like, I feel like I have right away like, I just like get it, you know what I mean? And then some people I’m like, well, but they kind of do all of these. Like, even though the work is focused, they kind of do all of these different things. So I was I interviewed our friend scout a couple of weeks ago. And yeah, and when I went through, I was doing her thing I was like narrowing it down as I went. I was like, definitely all of these cards but I have to kind of narrow in, um, and especially when people do have like multiple things, you know, or have done multiple things. It can be, like very complicated to narrow it down. But I feel like I’m kind of coming around to it. And part of it, I think is. So when I talk about like what card you really embody, um, I love this. I have no idea how you’re gonna react to it, though. So the hanged one 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:15:19  

Really? Yes. Wow, that’s me. 

Sheila M  1:15:22  

Yeah, you know what I’m so okay, this is what I’m thinking with it. So okay, when I was pulling them out this morning, I was like, I really feel this because one of the things that has helped me a lot is having you as a person who is, you know, so an expert in tech, tell me, like, you’re saying, like, you don’t need a website, you know, right, you know, maybe you need this, maybe you need that tool. But you don’t necessarily need a website. And then when you have a website, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Like, it can write this, it’s more important, like the content that you’re putting on there, and that it’s easy to read, and that you can read it on mobile and on desktop, and all of that.

But what I think is really interesting is being in the wellspring, and working with you and just like talking to you about things. And that whole conversation about why was very much like shifted my perspective. And whenever I think of the hanged one, I really think of that sense of like being suspended and kind of like being in between and having that perspective shift, and adjusting to the perspective shift. And one of the things that I’ve seen as we have gone through this year, and being in your program from start to where it is now. And as it’s evolving, is, there’s always kind of work being done. But I do feel like you’re kind of holding yourself in suspension, and not like getting out ahead of yourself, you know what I mean? and being like, Hey, this is the work that I need to do in order to be ready for when I launched this again, which I’ll talk about in a few minutes. But, um, yes, but I do think that’s really interesting, because I really love this card. And sometimes when people when I pull it for people that are like, freaked out, and I’m like, I really love the hanged one because I do struggle sometimes even with what I do, where I spend a lot of time in, like other people’s perspective and like reading for other people. I can struggle to get that kind of perspective myself. And I feel like you are very analytical and you do that for other people. But I also feel like in a lot of ways you do it for yourself. Also. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:17:33  

I’m trying. I love it. That’s fascinating to me. Yeah. Because when I when I see the hand when it’s pause, I’m like wait , but to hear your perspective of it? It’s like, yeah. Oh, that’s fascinating. I love it.

Sheila M  1:17:50  

I read it that way, too. It really depends. And again, like I tell everybody, like,

Patty Ryan Lee  1:17:53  

it’s great. Yeah, it depends,

Sheila M  1:17:54  

like context of the reading and what other parts are coming up. You know, if I’m seeing like, the hand one, and the eight of wands reversed, like, I’m like, okay, that’s a pause, slow the hell down. Like, stop trying to do whatever, you know, but, and then the other card that really came up was the six of swords, which I think is really like fascinating, because at first I was like, why is this coming up? Um, and I can always trust like what’s coming up in the morning, because, as we were talking here, I, I see this card, I’m literally like, you’re always like, there’s a better way. Like, there’s a better way to do this. Hey, all you tech refugees. You know what I mean? Like, there’s a better way to do this, especially with what we were talking about today. I know, I promised that you would get the opportunity to bash on social media, and we haven’t even done that yet But I think it’s funny because like, from the very beginning, you were like, Ah, fuck, Facebook, fuck Instagram, do your own shit, you know. And I think like when it comes to the six of swords, it’s not just, okay, there’s this better way to do it, you’re like, here, there’s this better way to do this. Let me show you. Like, let me let me guide you towards this better way to do this. And you don’t need to know exactly where you’re going. But you need to have some parameters to start to narrow it down. And that’s what I always think about with the six of swords, and always brings that air energy as well. So So I always come

Patty Ryan Lee  1:19:28  

I was just wondering if there would be swords in there because it’s like, yeah,

Sheila M  1:19:32  

and you like and I think that’s what’s very funny because like, you are very cerebral and I can always kind of see you like working through it and, and having that perspective, which I think is so interesting. So does that resonate for you or what car do you kind of see yourself in?

Patty Ryan Lee  1:19:49  

I it changes day to day. It’s like you know, today I’m a knight of swords. It’s usually a sword because I live in my head. But no, I love that because it again it goes to teaching and guiding. That’s what I’d love to do. Yeah. And I encourage others to pause. I encourage others to really think things through. And I’m trying to embody that myself. It’s like, you know, if I can’t do it, how can I tell other people to do it?

Sheila M  1:20:19  

Yeah. And that’s what’s so interesting about about doing this, too, is like, some people and I have a lot of friends who read and a lot of the people I’ve had on our readers, and are always fascinated to see, like, Oh, I love people are externally seen and how they internally feel are like, often very different. And I think it’s true for me as well. Like, if I were to ask somebody else, which at some point, I’m going to, maybe for like, your anniversary, I think I’m gonna have somebody interview me. So we should all come back with a card.

Yes. Oh, my God.

It is funny too, because I think like, often, like we’re always our own worst critic, too. And so I think that sometimes having that like, outside perspective is very interesting. So, 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:21:05  

yes, in tech, I hear that a lot. It’s like, Oh, I’m tech illiterate. I’m this I’m that I’m like, this is a different language. This is a new skill. Tarot is the same thing. This is a whole other field. You’re gonna have a whole new perspective. I love this. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I love it. No, yeah. 

Sheila M  1:21:27  

So, I know that in the new year, you’re going to be so not for a little bit now. So after the holidays, you’re going to be reopening the wellspring – how can people? How can people stay in touch with you? How can they work with you? How can they stay on top of it if they heard this? And they’re like, Yes, I need that in my life. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:21:47  

So if this point, when this goes on the air, I am on anti social kick. I will not be on social media from November 1 to December 31. And so the only place you’ll be able to get ahold of me is and sign up for the newsletter, because newsletter gets first dibs on everything I do. And if you want access to the framework as it’s in development, and workshops that I’m doing, you can join the fount tier right now. And get in on that that doesn’t have direct access to me is like an insurance policy. But I’m there once a month, and we’ll workshop something live and walk you through from point A to B to Zed. Yeah. Yeah. So

Sheila M  1:22:39  

I love that. And like I said, full endorsement. I’m not being paid, I pay Patty money. So I’m, I’m a huge fan of her work. And it has helped me immensely with my business. And also with my peace of mind this year. So thank you so much for taking the time too talk me tonight. This is so much fun. I mean, it’s always nice to talk to you.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:02  

But oh my gosh, we could talk for hours and hours. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. I know. Yeah. And yeah, hello to your audience. And yes. Oh, I have a freebie for your audience. It’s okay. Yeah, I can’t remember the URL for it, but it will be very well done.

Sheila M  1:23:18  

And I’ll put everything in the show notes as well. Yeah. So and what is the freebie

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:24  

It is 10 weeks of questions from the Tarot. So it’s Tuesday, I call it Tuesdays without Tarot. It’s my perspective on tarot readings. You get a question rather than asking one based on a card. And I don’t tell you what the card is. And you journal it. And it could be from a business perspective, personal perspective. But when you are your own personal brand, it’s probably for both.

Sheila M  1:23:48  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I’ll include that in the show notes of today’s episode. And thank you so much.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:55  

Hi. Oh, you’re very welcome. Thank you for having me. And anytime This was my first podcast, so much fun. Oh my god.

Sheila M  1:24:05  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review, and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Support Through Thresholds, Healing Guidance & Embodying The Lovers and The Empress with Scout Chavers

On episode 17 of Living Tarot, I interview my friend, Scout Chavers. Scout is an intuitive healer, generational doula and somatic guide in Austin, TX. She guides doula’s, healers and ethically non-monogamous lovers toward radical self acceptance, trust and love throughout transitions in their life through a trauma informed lens. Scout is passionate about alchemizing life experiences, emotions and our innate intuitive wisdom into empowerment and a deep sense of self trust – because she truly believes in rebirthing, reparenting and reclaiming our wellness as our birthright and as a form of activism. Scout’s resourced connection ushers various soul types through discomfort and creates a space for them to arrive to authenticity in their bodies to live WILD + AWAKE. Working with marginalized communities to ensure their birthright of awareness and wellness is truly ancestral work and at the cornerstone of Scout’s community engagement.

  • Scout and I discuss the complexity and exhaustion that she experiences showing up in the wellness community as a queer, black woman.
  • Scout speaks about how her activism has changed over the years.
  • We talk about what led her to doula work and how despite our best efforts at rebellion we are always brought home to our calling.
  • We discuss how intuition has shown up in her ability to be an intuitive healing guide and How she has taken it upon herself to take care of the caretakers in life.
  • We talk about the burden of perfectionism and how to take better care of yourself.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Connect with Scout:

Find scout Online at or on Instagram at

Join Scout for her next Soulful Self-Care Sunday:

Join the waitlist for Scout’s Doula Support Community here:

Donate to Scout’s Doula Support fund here: – *This money is strictly used to provide educational scholarships to BIPOC Doulas seeking mentorship and skillsets to help them support BIPOC families.

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. On today’s episode, it is my immense pleasure to interview my friend Scout Chavers. Scout is an intuitive healer, generational doula and somatic guide based in Austin, Texas. She guides doulas healers and ethical non monogamous lovers toward radical self acceptance, trust and love throughout transitions in their lives, and through a trauma informed lens. Scout is passionate about alkalizing life experiences, emotions, and our innate intuitive wisdom into empowerment and a deep sense of self trust, because she truly believes in rebirthing, reparenting and reclaiming our wellness as our birthright and as a form of activism. Scout’s resourced connections ushers various soul types through discomfort and creates space for them to arrive to authenticity in their bodies, and to live wild awake. Working with marginalized communities to ensure their birthright of awareness and wellness is truly ancestral work and at the cornerstone of Scout’s community engagement. Scout and I met in a business program earlier this year, and I was immediately drawn to her work, because it is such an important piece of community building is such and important piece of activism, the work that she does as a doula, and as a woman of color, to provide support and care. And usher people over these thresholds in life is really powerful. We have such a beautiful conversation about context switching, about showing up in the wellness world, as a black queer woman, and what that means to her, what it looks like for her on a daily basis. We also discuss her lineage and ancestry and how intuition was part of her birthright and the way that she was raised. We also discuss a little bit about how she embodies the lovers card, and also the Empress card. So without further ado, let’s dive right in. 

I’m so excited. And I have my friend Scout with me today. So can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Scout Chavers  3:26  

Yes, I’m so happy to be here with you first and foremost, because I love all the things that you do and just your perspective on all the things in the world in the space that you hold. But I like to consider myself just an overall intuitive healing guide. And that can look so many different ways to the world. Mainly my main main, main job and space that I hold is as as a doula and I’d like to consider myself a full spectrum doula. And that means just, you know, I consider that defined as ushering people through transition in their life and through discomfort. And that can look like birth, it can look like grief, it can look like joy, it can look like just transition in terms of their bodies. So that can that can take many, many, many forms. And so that right now, during COVID does still look like a lot of birth work. But it does look like a lot of trauma work as well, with people who, you know, are parents, people who aren’t parents, just people out in the world. So overall, I just really love to guide people towards their own intuition and guide people through their own healing in a in a journey of self trust and like self discovery.

Yeah. I love the way you said that too. And I love the way you talk about being a doula because I feel like there are so many things in our society that kind of get glazed over and in particular, when it comes to birth, which is kind of like your heaviest focus right now. That there is just kind of this, all this anticipation and nine months of of gestation and getting everything ready and having a baby shower and everybody talking about it and gender reveal parties, which I fucking hate. Yeah. And like all these things, and then you have the baby and all of a sudden, it’s just like, okay, like, you’re good, go back out into the world be a parent now. And there’s like, no real support. And it was only in the past couple years that I even knew, like being a doula was a job. And I was like, this is so important how I mean, I know how it skipped over – it’s white supremacy and the patriarchy. It’s so fascinating to me that we we skip over so many of those thresholds, and and we just kind of like, there’s so much anticipation, I mean, even like weddings, death, like all of these different things, and we just skip over that middle part. So what was it that really drew you to that space? And to wanting to do that type of work? Or what, what kind of compelled you into that?

Yeah, I think what compelled me is being able to hold space for the emotional part of the journey, which I feel like our culture ignores in all the things that you just stated. So yeah, like all of this preparation work of becoming a parent of being excited buying things, capitalism stuff, stuff, stuff. And then all of a sudden, there’s just nobody ushering anyone through the experience of like your life is about to change, your partnerships about to change your family dynamics are about to change your households about to change, your responsibilities are about to change your jobs about to change, like everything in your life is about to shift in so many transitions in our life, including becoming a parent, no matter if it’s your first, second or third, fourth time. So I mean, this lifestyle of being a caregiver in this way, and a space holder in this way was introduced to me through my lineage, this is what my mother did, this is what my grandmother did. So it was never a foreign concept to me. But my mother’s specifically, who I grew up with, obviously, my whole life, I didn’t really grow up living close to or with my grandmother at all. She worked in the medical field specifically. So she was in the hospital on the labor and delivery floors for a lot of her career. And I knew that I wanted to be a part of that. But I didn’t want to be a medical professional, I did not want to be in the healthcare system. That was something I had no interest in. So for a long time, even though I knew doulas were like a thing I didn’t really, I didn’t really see it as a space that I wanted to be in in terms of just birth or transition, I did my own rebellious thing for a while of, you know, going to art school thinking like, I’m not going to be like my parents and my family, you know, that whole young, thinking, you know, everything when you’re 20 Yeah, and then I, of course, eventually landed here, because we know, that’s how karma and energy works. But, um, so I think that what really got me here, in terms of just showing up, that’s what I really think it was, I took a long time to show up here. And what got me to show up was understanding that there was a huge emotional space that people weren’t paying attention to that there is an emotional space and just everything from moving your body to transitioning and moving in your life. And so I landed there originally through yoga through becoming a yoga teacher, a somatic guide, and learning about how trauma how energy gets stuck in the body, learning about all the different abilities mobilities that people have in their bodies, as well as modifications for abilities. And through that, I mean, it just felt like I was experiencing rebirth over and over and over again through people rediscovering just the sense of being in the four walls of their body. And so it just took one prenatal yoga teacher training, very early on in my yoga career for me to be to come to the realization and be in the realization that this is the space that I need to to exist in.

Sheila M  8:49  

Yeah, I love how you said that too. Because I think I had an experience that was very similar. And I, I had actually taken prenatal training and, like loved it, like I really like took to it. I love teaching it, I still love teaching it. Um, but I went to a class and it was literally one of those things that you kind of sign up for on a whim. And it was a two hour class on the pelvic floor, the female pelvic floor. And it taught here in the Philadelphia area by a woman named Deb Brownstein, who’s fabulous. And I was sitting in this room and there were like, probably about 40 women in the room, all different ages from like, very young, like early 20s to like 60s, I mean, and she just kind of opened up the room at the beginning and said, you know, how many of you have had children? How many of you haven’t? Um, then she was like, what’s the state of your pelvic floor and everybody was like, I mean, just like, done. And it was this whole conversation where these women who had given birth 40 years ago, had been dealing with back pain and chronic issues for literally 40 years from giving. Yeah, I was like, I am so angry, right now? Yeah. Like, I want to do something, I think there, there is definitely something about that. And I know that that’s a lot of what is driven your experience and wanting to be a full spectrum doula as well, because there are so many populations that are left behind. And in particular, for black women, for women of color,there is a completely different experience of the medical industrial birthing process than there is for white women. Can you speak to that a little bit about kind of what drew you in and how you knew that was really the work you were meant to do?

Scout Chavers  10:53  

Yeah, absolutely. I think that, first of all, love the pelvic floor story, because like, Yes, just cheers and snaps for all the pelvic floor health. Important, no matter how old you are, what life experiences have been. But I I definitely have been heavily rooted in social justice work just in every aspect of my life. I think just being specifically a black queer woman, there really was no running from that and everything that I do. So it has infiltrated every part of my life in a joyful way. So like that can sound really emotionally heavy to some people where it’s like, they hear social justice, and they immediately hear politics or they hear, like, oh, you’re listening to all the depressing things that might be happening in the world. But for me, it was really much like no, I really need to fight because there is a system in place here, that doesn’t seem to be making sense. And there are certain people that need to see that the table and a certain amount of people that need to be heard. And I discovered that very early, just growing up in a very academic environment. And also growing up in an environment where my parents taught me from home a lot of the time. So although I, although I grew up going to private schools, and like college academic, like college prep schools, my parents also taught me a whole different curriculum from home, especially when I was very young, like before the ages of 14, with just teaching me black history, teaching me things that they knew I wasn’t going to learn in school, and just also teaching me how the world worked, like teaching me a whole separate curriculum in terms of like, you know, being 12 years old and running around and being like a crazy kid with the rest of my friends. And my parents like mentioning things to me of like, Hey, you can go and be like a crazy child. But if the cops show up, it might be a little different for you then for your friends, and here’s why. And so, just starting to grow up with that education very early, I always had that mindset of like, things are different for different people and wanting to take up the space of in using my my loud voice, and my access, frankly, to help others. And I think that that access was not only created by the privilege that I had, of having parents who made it out of being incredibly poor, and made it into the middle class. They assimilated and infiltrated enough to be able to get me into those spaces. But also, the education that they provided me through academia allowed me to also be able to assimilate and be seen as like a token in the white community. And so what I mean by that is that because of the education I received, I speak a certain way, and I have the ability to code switch in a certain way, so that I am accepted by white culture, and I can make it into those white spaces, which means it is really my duty to clear the way and like fling the doors wide open for everyone else who deserves to be in those spaces that may not have had the same privilege and access that I have had to gain this level of code switching, which I consider a superpower.

Sheila M  13:49  

Yeah. 100%. And I, for anybody listening who doesn’t understand what code switching is, can you explain it to them? Yeah,

Scout Chavers  13:58  

yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, I realized that I’m joining back in on my visual for you, but you should be able to hear me from the sound. Yeah, so so code switching in general, and I’m gonna say this from my own my own perspective, and then also like, what I think it seen as on a larger scale and stage, but code switching is really just the ability to be able to, to, to lessen your proximity to whiteness, by being able to put on what I like to consider the costume of whiteness. So basically, how good or bad you are perceived or how accepted you are in the world is really measured on a scale of the proximity to whiteness. So, we have European beauty standards and our standard of academia, how smart you are, how educated you are, how professional you are, is in a proximity to how white you seem. And by white, I just mean that anything that is seen as a high level of energy education or a high level of cultural speaking, is seen as whiteness. So, because I know how to turn my Ebonics on and off, and because I know how what certain tones of voice I can use to be accepted in certain spaces, it has allowed me to show up in spaces and be accepted in spaces that other people of color, maybe would not have access to. I like to think of code switching is putting on a costume, I put on a costume so that I can keep every everyone who’s white around me as calm and complacent as possible, so that they’re not challenging me at every move, so that I can at least have a seat at the table. And most of the time, just even be able to listen to what is said, because it still doesn’t mean that I’m going to get the space to share or, you know, say anything directly. But code switching in general, I like to think of it as putting on an outfit and a costume. And it’s probably why a lot of people of color in your life, you might see them or perceive them as acting differently when they might be around their family, and around people and other people of color, then when they are at work.

Sheila M  16:07  

Yeah, and that I can’t even fathom how exhausting that much for all of you. I like truly, because I have seen it with friends of mine. And over the years. And I honestly, I like I can’t possibly imagine what it would be like, because it’s not my experience. But in just hearing so much from friends over the past six months, especially. You totally take for granted how much work is going into that at all times. And I truly I can’t imagine. So I think what you’re doing is, I think maybe underestimated by some people, in terms of the amount of work that it is to first of all show up and be able to switch back and forth. And also to how can I say, to also do the work of social justice and advocacy while you’re doing that, because that is already work that like you said you do joyfully but that doesn’t mean that it’s not hard work, or that it’s not heavy work at times, or like now in particular, that it’s not like truly just like soul crushing at times? 

Scout Chavers  17:35  

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I do agree with you. It’s just it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work of always knowing and being aware of what space you’re in, at what times and with who, and not being able to be fully embodied as yourself all the time, which is what it was just something that in the wellness community specifically, I’ve been trying to make apparent to a lot of amazing, non POC wellness workers that I know like in this land, and in this world to do a lot of embodiment work with people, a lot of self trust work a lot of very similar things that I do. And I try to explain why that space, why there needs to be space for black wellness workers, black healers to be in that space, specifically, because a lot of non POC and non black wellness workers don’t understand that trauma is a little bit different for us, and that we are constantly incurring and having to do more work than the average person just like walking around on the planet. And so when you’re talking about being fully embodied as yourself, there are a lot of people of color, there’s no spaces throughout the entire day where they get to be fully embodied in themselves. So when you’re talking about self discovery, and radical self trust, and all these things, that nuance is very, very different when you’re living in a world that might like murder you because of that. So it’s it’s very, very different.

Sheila M  18:49  

Yeah. And I think it’s so interesting, because there is very little research on racial trauma, the generational trauma that comes with it, the fact that from the time that you’re young, you are exposed to the stuff. So there are, there is a lot of research on you know, abuse, trauma for children, and the way that your brain develops differently. But I have to imagine that over the next few years, we’ll find even more research about how that affects Child Development, growth over time, your ability to not just like you said, like, like switch to keep yourself safe, but also the ways in which that trauma then presents itself in your daily life and your ability to connect with people or like you’re saying to show up in a way where you feel safe to be connected to someone in a relationship or to go out and on social media, for example, show up in the same way that say I can as a white woman, um, and I really do I appreciate I mean, I’ve told this offline. But I do appreciate the work that you’re doing. Because I do realize that comes at great personal cost, and exhaustion and also is very needed. And there is, there’s so much wisdom that you have to share and that you have shared. And I personally am very grateful, I encourage anybody listening, who is interested in this to follow Scout on Instagram, which we’ll talk about at the end and everything, but you really have this, you do have this beautiful way of speaking to things. And also, this is gonna be ridiculous. Your voice is like, like, ASMR to me, like I love your voice. I think it’s like so soothing. I was like, I just went out to record all of my meditations, you’re like really, like, firmly, like laying down the law. And also, being just like, with the most lovely voice, I’m like, this is like, this is exactly what I need. And you know what I mean. And I think I’m, I’m just I’m really grateful for you sharing that, because it is important to hear it from somebody who has had that experience. And I’ve had the experience this year of talking to female and queer friends of color, who are in the wellness community, who really don’t feel like there is space for them. And quite frankly, there’s plenty of white women here. We need some other perspectives, in my opinion, because I don’t always relate to those either. And I think that there, there’s a lot to be said, and I think everybody deserves that space, and to have somebody in that space, talking to them who has had a similar experience. And in my mind, the more diverse those spaces are, the better they’re going to be for everyone. And the more you’re going to meet everyone, because just the tiniest little bit of awareness. It, there’s no way that it doesn’t make everybody better, you know, and that’s frustrating to me, and going around and finding all these studios that are still very white. And very, like not even just like white, but like very thin white model, yoga teachers power yoga, that’s it like yeah, stripped of all of yoga’s essence. And so I’m I’m really grateful that there are so many people out there now who have been able to advocate and to really push and to get other voices out there. Because it is so important.

Scout Chavers  22:44  

Yeah, for sure. I agree. I think that. And that’s also kind of the note that I wanted to go back around to like the whole code switching thing is I think that, you know, this is generational work. We’ve been doing it for generations, and there are different methods that need to be used strategically at different times. And I think that for a long time like for me personally infiltrating was the answer. Like I mean, I that’s what I’ve spent all my life until now doing. I’m 31 I spent all of my 20s infiltrating of just like going to college, getting into spaces carving out a platform so that people would actually listen to me and now I’m at the point finally now where people are listening to me. And for me personally, my strategy is no longer infiltration, especially in the wellness world, it’s sort of just burn it all down. Um, I’ve tried to work at many yoga studios, I’ve worked at many, many, many there are no shortage here in Austin, and I there are many, many, many that I’ve been that have been the white, you know, power yoga, we only put people of color on our advertising randomly when we get called out about it. Studios and it does not work like I no matter how nice I am no matter how much I tried to suggest things, the core issues of how they’re training wellness teachers, how they’re training yoga teachers, how they’re treating their staff, the fact that you know, trans bodies don’t feel welcome in those spaces, people are still queuing and a gender normative what like it’s just it’s very, very interesting. But I am no longer I am no longer a team infiltrate when it comes to the wellness community. I am very much burn it down and stop giving those people money and start going to other yoga studios. Because they’re more than enough yoga studios in the entire world like there are more than enough. Stop giving them your money.

Yes, oh my gosh, I love everything about this. So with all this work that you’ve been doing and with your doula work, because this is an intuition podcast, and I know that a lot of what led you to that was you know that rebellion and then kind of magnetically being drawn back around to that. So what really drew you to because I know you read Tarot and you are an intuitive healer and you do have just such an intuitive. Like, I feel like you have such this way of speaking to people where they feel completely safe no matter what it is that you’re saying, and no matter what their experience is, which is like the true mark, to me of somebody who is like, kind of meant to be a healer, because because of the way you show up like that. So what really kind of turned you on or introduced you to intuition and divination and all of that work?

Yeah, I can say that I had a really long relationship with my intuition. Before I really knew what it was, which I think many of us do. I had an unconscious awareness of my intuition at a very young age. And I would say that that showed up for me as a sense of radical self trust with no data. So like that, that’s how that showed up for me as a child in terms of just me being very rebellious, and always asking why always under wanting to understand why certain systems were in place, because I was also taught very young, like, these systems are kind of bullshit. So like, as I’m taught that as a kid, then I’m looking around like, well, then why do we have to have been Why? Why are we doing this. So just having that sense of questioning at such a young age, I didn’t have any data that like I should trust myself versus what other people may be telling me in certain spaces, I had no data that that’s because as a kid, you just trust what the adults are telling you to do. And so having this radical sense of self trust of like, I’m not quite sure why I want to do this, but I’m just going to do it. And I’m not really sure why I feel more comfortable in this space versus this space, but I’m just going to trust myself and be in that space and just starting that with very little things. And then having those things grow and grow and be heftier heftier things and land land mines, I would say that would happen in my life, I just started to realize that there was an internal voice and an internal compass that I was following that I was trusting. And then I would also notice the moments that I didn’t trust it, and that I wouldn’t listen and how those things would, would work out. And so just realizing that I had a sense of radical self trust, when I had no data that trusting myself would actually work introduced me to my intuition. And then I was so curious about it, that I wanted to hone it and be more involved with it and get closer to it. So I just started to do that in terms of, you know, allowing myself to follow my joy. And not just joy as in like being happy all the time. But I should say, more fulfillment than joy. And just allowing myself to take chances and trust myself. So I would say that, that intuition sort of led me into the relationship of understanding that it was really radical self trust that it was at the bedrock of that. And that is where I try to lead other people towards, it’s just like, you’re gonna find your intuition, you’re going to find your gifts, you’re going to find all of that stuff. If you just lean into the self trust, if you lean into making sure that you’re listening on the inside before you listen on the outside. And that for me, came up heavily when I rediscovered Tarot and I say rediscover because it’s something that was in my life also in my lineage and seeing other people when I was young doing it, things like that didn’t also didn’t really interest me at that time. didn’t really understand or know, but then being called back to it in my 20s as I’m trying to discover myself being called like back to that home space of using divination tools. I was finding myself getting back into that childhood mode. It was like I started at age two, again, like just even with my tarot cards of being like, okay, I don’t know what this card means. Let me look it up in this book that some random person wrote and all the books are different, and they all say different things. And they’re not wanting to wanting to get to that place of like, but then what is right and what is wrong, you know what I mean? And allowing my rebellious voice. To be like, there is no right there is no wrong. And so then just landing back into that space of like, Oh, I’m just gonna trust myself, like, what is this saying to me, and really turning on your list your internal listening in a different way. Instead of being trained just to listen to what people are saying, You’re telling you we’re dictating for you to do, listening to your gut, listening to your soul listening on from the inside. And so I would say that divination sort of tested me to come back to that space when I thought that I had like, gotten that down, as all life lessons to it just shifts, shifts its perspective and then forces you to learn again, right? Up to that challenge. So I will say with that with Tarot and just divination in general discovering all the different ways that that that I could meet with my own magic and discovering that reclaiming my magic was something that was very important for my for my my personal trauma and for my ancestral trauma and for my lineage in general. It really allowed me to, to trust myself in a new way, and then also gave me a tool to help communicate with other people through readings, teaching others, things like that.

Sheila M  29:50  

Yeah. I love that. I’m gonna go back to two things that you said. So I love that you spoke to Intuition being more, you being more aware of it when it was wrong. Because I think there’s this thing that happens for people sometimes. And I know that it happened for me when when I was kind of learning all of this stuff that anytime when I wouldn’t listen, and I was like, why didn’t I just listen to that? Then I like somehow paired it up with my intuition is wrong, like, Oh, I was wrong about this. But I think what’s actually happening is like, anxiety gets the best of us, and especially when you do have trauma, and I imagine in your case, having to marry all of that up with each other. And then Hmm, so how was that for you? Like? Was it always like, okay, no, I just, I just got to come back to this, or did you have moments where you’re like, this is bullshit. What was that like for you? Yeah, 

Scout Chavers  30:51  

I really, I don’t think I ever got to the point where I thought it was bullshit. But I did not I did go through the bouts of not trusting myself and being like, Oh, did I just make a wrong decision. But when it came to the core of it, I really did realize that it was it was usually just a trauma response. That we get in the way of me listening to my intuition, or me acting accordingly. And the only way I could really identify that and pointing out pointed out was to do Shadow Work and discover my trauma responses. So that was in that was something that I very slowly did just just starting to discover patterns in my life, or discovering how I landed in certain spaces that I didn’t like, and realizing it was very similarly to how I learned landed in other spaces that I didn’t like, and other times in my life, and then just realizing like, Oh, so when you get scared, this is how you tend to react. And it usually doesn’t work out for you, if you if you act from that space of fear. And also just realizing that a lot of this culture, and I think this is true for all of us, but just as like a black woman, I think that I was saw this very early in my life, that this culture really expects us and wants us all to operate from a place of fear of like, but if I don’t, and just like a place of scarcity, there’s not enough later, I got to get it now. And if this is mine, and screw the other person, and I got to stay and be secure, and I can’t take a leap because I don’t trust myself. And so really, what was the jumping off point for me and really going inside and forcing myself to listen, there were two major things that happened one, my life slowed down completely. And two, I took a huge chance. And when I say slow down, what I mean by that is I in I enveloped myself in a lot of very tiny rituals. And of course, I don’t have time to just like quit my job and like be doing tiny rituals all day. But I decided to make changes in my life that would allow me to do that I knew that I needed to immerse myself in a space that would be quiet. And that would allow me to think and that would allow me to do little mundane things that I could spiritually energetically put my energy into and get something back. And that I knew I needed to make a big leap and make a change in my life and stop giving energy to the toxic things that I said I didn’t like so for me what that looked like was after art school, I was gainfully employed as a designer, in marketing for years. And I was very lucky that I got that job because of course, I graduated school with a bunch of student loans. So the semester before I graduated, I was very grateful to be one of the people that already had had a job. And I was miserable. absolutely miserable, working. I mean, I was in advertising working all hours. And it just being an expectation of like, Oh, well, you know, you’re young and this is just the expectation you need to like earn your keep and just all of these all of these, like no, just me. Yeah, I’m like is this the way this is supposed to be like I’m oh is this we’re just supposed to be miserable like this forever. I was just very confused. Um, and so I just decided when I mean I took a huge pay cut, probably biggest pick out of my whole life. And I started nannying, which I hadn’t done since like high school and the beginning of college. And I, which allowed me to be with small children who teach you a lot and require tons of patience. And I also started working at the front desk of the yoga studio that I desired to go to yoga school at so that I could, you know, earn some keep and start going to yoga school. So it allowed me to I mean, yes, it was stressful. I’m not going to pretend like this was like just all sunshine and rainbows like I was making no money. And I was working a lot. But it allowed me to have slowness in my day where I felt like I was being usually being stuck in a cog in a system. It allowed me to really analyze where I was putting my energy. It allowed me to immerse myself in the wellness community, which I never had the opportunity to do when I was working all hours of the day. And so I just decided to take a big leap and make a big change and follow my intuition. And it honestly is like what led up to everything I’m doing now I wouldn’t take that back for the world. So it was really coming back to that place of self trust and putting my money where my mouth was when it came to changing my life. That started me off on that foot.

Yeah. I love I love that. I really do. And I like that you spoke to that. Like even though you knew it was right, it was still challenging. Because that’s one of the themes that I’ve been seeing come up for a lot of people and one of the things that I think is like instagrammable. And that happens a lot again and like the wellness space right now is like, if something is right then it is easy. And it is not. It’s not at all. Like you can know in your heart in your body and your mind in like all of you that it’s the right thing. And it can still be just like brutal to make that change. And I love that you spoke to that a little bit. I’m going back just to one more thing, but that I want us to ask about too, because I’m so fascinated by this personally. You are a triple Virgo Am I remember that right?

Yes. So in Vedic astrology, which is usually what i what i what i read, I don’t have a lot of knowledge in western astrology. But in Vedic astrology, I am a triple Virgo. And in western astrology, I am a triple Libra. So 

Sheila M  36:01  

Oh my god. Yeah. That is so funny. Because I was like, how does that go with like, divination and everything, both of them really honestly, like in traditional or, or Vedic? Like, how does that work? When you’re like, kind of in the like, this kind of grounded place to be trying to like bring all of this intuitive stuff down. I mean, I think it’s probably part of what makes you such a clear communicator about it. Because one of the things I think is most challenging is taking these kind of like, it’s not always like a sentence, right? It’s like a blob of stuff. And you have to like, pass it through you. And sometimes it like comes out and I’m like, oh, Sheila, that just was not that was not eloquent at all, that was not cute. But whenever whenever you’re like speaking to these things, and when you write stuff up the about the Tarot and all these different things, I’m like, Oh, my God, like yes, like that? Is it? Like, I’ve struggled so much to get that exact, like feeling out, and it just does not come out that way. So how do you think that your astrology has kind of influenced your ability in this work? Because I can imagine that it would bring both strengths and challenges there.

Scout Chavers  37:22  

Yeah, for sure. I mean, especially in my Virgo. I mean, the biggest challenge of that, for me, for my Virgo, and for my Libra is the fact that I always want to see both sides of everything, which sometimes will leave me at a standstill. But also I want to be a perfectionist, that everything which there’s no perfectionism in the work of embodiment, and the work of divination, like there is no room for that. So that’s a huge personal project in terms of just letting that go. But I do agree with what you said about like being in that airy, like breathy space of intuitiveness, which is like super all up in your brain like flying high up in the clouds and then needing that grounding aspect to be like, how do I communicate this on the earth now like to other humans, I feel like they’re my a lot of my grounding energy is always like very much in the human form. I really, really, I like to think of myself as someone who enjoys the human experience. That’s something I learned very early in a lot of my yogic philosophy studies is that you know, I am not this like existentialist like let’s go out to the woods, and live minimally with nothing and be spiritual and meditate under a tree like that is not where I live. I live in the space of like, Oh, no, we’re humans, like, I am in the mess, I am in the mud, I am in the imperfection, I am in all the feelings. And I like to ascend into that space, and, and grab those downloads from the universe. I like to channel like you were kind of talking about and be able to communicate them. But I am very much rooted in the fact that like, Hey, we’re all human. And let’s try to put this into words that that humans understand which i think that that part comes a little naturally to me, I think. I don’t realize that I’m putting it in a very specific way. That is, it’s nice that it is heard by so many different people. I think that’s a gift that I didn’t realize that I had. But I really am heavily rooted in the human experience with all my earthiness. I am not very I’m not very airy in my mind at all. I’m not not at all.

Sheila M  39:19  

Yeah, I think it’s so interesting, because I was I had a conversation with our friends Ash, where we talked about this a little bit and I was saying cuz um, they and I are both heavy fire charts like both of us have very heavy fire charts. And when we were talking about it, I was saying, the challenge for me like you’re saying is always to remove my ego from it like I have. My sun is in Leo and my rising sign Sagittarius. And what I think comes from the Leo a lot is this like, it’s not really people pleasing. But like, I want to be good, I want to be good at everything. And so it was hard for me in the beginning to take my ego out of it. But really, ultimately, what makes you a better healer and a better space holder is having that kind of completely removed and not being attached to the outcome. So it wasn’t like I wanted people, when I say ego wasn’t like, I wanted people to be like, Oh my gosh, you’re the best. Like, that’s not Yeah, I get the reputation that leos gets. It was more like, this person is paying me for a healing session. And so I feel like I need to solve like, I need to fix this thing. Or else they will feel like they have not gotten the experience that they paid for. And so I was like, very  in the beginning attached to that. And luckily, one of my teachers, and my Reiki teacher had a conversation with me and was basically like, that’s not how energy works. Like you can’t force it into submission, heavy fire chart -stop soing that. Yeah.

Scout Chavers  41:06  

Like, yeah, you can’t make it do that. It’s like trying to control flowing water you’re like, but why

Sheila M  41:14  

I can just will this to happen? I’ve done a lot of things. And, yeah, so I’m like, well, this must also be something I must do with brute force, you know. And so it was such a revelation for me when I took that out. And now I feel like the challenge that I am presented with, and you can’t tell me if this is similar with some of the work that you do, but is translating that over to other people. So having conversations, whether it is online, in my social space on here, with my clients, or on like my, you know, my offerings page, where I’m explaining to people that I’m not going to, like solve this for them, or fix them, or, or give them all the answers with the Tarot like it, my opinion is not that relevant. And what it’s really about is holding space for that person to heal themselves in a way that is safe and feels comfortable to them. And we’re holding the space for the person to actually step away from their life and be able to reflect on what they actually want. When we;re doing like a tarot reading, like what is going on? And yes, what have you been so like, anxious and hung up on that you can’t see clearly because the second that we start to have a conversation. Um, I can hear it almost right away. And and yeah, I don’t, – I don’t need the cards. It was really funny. I had a reading with a woman really early on, and she was like, Oh, you don’t need those cards. You can put them away. And I was like, Yeah, but it freaks people out. Last one. I have. Yeah.

Scout Chavers  42:54  

It’s a comfort tool. Really, for everyone else.

Like, you know, people like to have something to look at because it’s I think like we are at different levels of being able to suspend reality, right? Yeah. Like, people come in and I get a lot of people who are first time everything so this is my friend getting energy, right? This is my first time with a tarot reading. I don’t really know what I think about this, you know, I’m yeah, I’m on the fence and I don’t really understand what’s asked, you know, things like that. And I think one of the things that is really hard is removing that ego and just kind of allowing things to flow. Because as you know how you described it, the more you try to get involved, when you’re talking about channeling and everything else, the foggier the message will be like the higher Yeah,

Oh, yeah. Cuz then you’re not paying attention to what’s actually important. You’re paying attention, like what you need, you’re paying attention to you. And really, it’s just like, you have no part in this. And this was actually so so I kind of heard your question in three different parts. So I want to like I want to want to answer it in three different ways. First, I heard you know, the aspect of like, I really feel like I need to be solving something for people to in order to feel worthy to be doing this work. And this is a huge reason why I don’t call myself a healer as much like I do I do in my bio because when I sometimes healing guide is just too many words. And so sometimes I will say healer, but when people ask me, I always say healing guide, because I like to guide people in their own healing, I’m not going to heal you. I’m not a healer, I have the power to open up the channels for you, but I’m not going to heal you in any way. I’m not I’m not going to be magic for you in that way. But what I want you to do is be able to find your own path to healing with me and for me to be able to light that that way. So and I think that the the core issue that I have found in my practices of people coming to me with that expectation is one let’s chat about why you are always looking to grab something outside of you to fix your shit. Let’s talk about that. Because that’s true with everything. Like I’m having a little bit of a headache. Let me call the doctor and it’s like, hold on how much water Have you had today? What have you been eating lately, like, let’s start, let’s like, let’s self assess, you know, before we immediately start reaching out to people who we consider more qualified than us, because in reality, I am no more qualified than you, I have just done studies in certain spaces that you have not done studies in because you were busy doing your own things in your own life. So in order for like efficiency sake, in this human experience, you come to me someone who has been doing studies in this space to help Usher you through this, but it’s not like I have some grand knowledge that only I can get. And you have to come to me to get it. And it’s that’s also like that, you know, each one teach one anybody who likes to give you the impression that they are the guru and your medicine, you probably should steer away from and go somewhere else. But I sort of got that feedback from spiritual teachers as well, when I was going through that. And a big part of my career where I saw that was actually even a personal thing. It was actually when I was like getting divorced. I was married for I was with my ex husband for 10 years. And we were married for four. And as our marriage was starting to like deteriorate a little bit due to some some health things, mental health management things and lifestyle differences as we grew up, I really did not like the idea of like abandoning him or feeling like I was abandoning him, when I knew that we were not going to work out. And I, you know, went to my spiritual teachers and got a couple of readings and things like that, and they know how to speak to me. In the way that I need to be spoken to is a Virgo, which is usually a little harsher than some people. I really like that I like a little tough love, you know what I mean? Like I like for someone to get real with me. And one of my teachers was just like, Who the hell are you to fix anything for anybody? Like, and who are you to do that, that is not your job. And you’re also robbing them of the opportunity and experience of learning how to fix and heal themselves. So like, basically looking at me and being like, Fuck off, like, get out of get out of their process, get out of that process. And I was like, Oh, I I needed that. Like it just it gave me liberation, because then I actually freed myself of the pressure of being like, Oh, I don’t even I don’t have to save everyone, like I was just so confused. Like, you save everyone. And they’re like, No, you are doing them a disservice. And you’re also creating a karmic tie with them that they don’t need, because then their whole their karma, and their energy is going to feel indebted to you even possibly in future lives. And you didn’t even need to be involved in that that’s not your work. That’s not your job. Like, you know, it’s almost like but out and I needed that I needed that reassurance. And one of my teachers, she likes to say don’t sell water by the river. That’s what she always says she’s like, stop doing that you are not the solution. You everybody has their own path, how you got to the river is not how the other person’s going to get to the river. So don’t try to lead them down your same path. Just be the light, just be the light. And so I took that to heart. And that’s really when I started to shift that perspective. But I also think that what you were mentioning for healers, and for you know, healing guides, and for anybody who works in the wellness space, in the divination, space in the magic space, whatever people like to refer to it as, that’s what leads to a lot of perfection paralysis. And that’s what leads me personally to working with a lot of people. And most of my work with them is like, Can you just please go out into the world and do your work because the world needs you. And you’re too busy over here thinking that you’re not good enough yet. It leads to the thought process of like, I need to be perfect in order to help someone else. I can’t help someone else with their relationship if my relationship isn’t going perfectly. I can’t read cards for somebody if I tried to read my own cards this morning, and nothing was coming through. And it’s like none of those things are true. None of those things are true. We don’t need you perfect. We don’t need anybody perfect because that’s a disservice. Like we The world needs you with all your messiness and all your mistakes The world needs to see you mess up the world needs to see how you react when you mess up. Like we need all those things. And if we’re all stuck in this space of like I need to be perfect in order to help someone else and then I need to wait for them to be perfect so they can go help someone else we will never get anywhere. And so for the biggest part of that that I want people to take away if they’re listening is like the world needs you at your most imperfect period like full stop.

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Sheila M  51:01  

Yes, oh my gosh, I love that so much. Because I think there is this thing that happens where especially when people are new, where they do feel that obligation, and it is born out of being told our entire lives, that wisdom is outside of us. You go to school and you learn from someone else, you go to church, and you learn from someone else, and everything has to pass. All wisdom has to pass through somebody else before it comes to you. And this is so much about giving that back to people. And I love what you said about not liking the word healer, I find that I don’t like any of the words. I don’t like any of the words I’m like, don’t put me in a box. I will be no I am an original don’t put me in a box. But it’s also like you said I’m like I don’t really feel like a healer. I don’t really feel like a medium. I don’t like I don’t really feel like any of these things. All of these things are are things that I help facilitate. Sure, you know, but I think I love how you said like guide. And I agree, I feel like everywhere that I go, I have to like shorten everything up. And I’m like, this is not as succinct as I would like it to be. I always wish that there was a different word for it. Like in particular, like medium, like I’ve always hated the word medium. I hate it. I guess I just, I never liked it, there’s no good way to describe it. Yeah, I also just feel like even from the very beginning with that, I never felt like that was the main thing. I think it is to facilitate something else that I haven’t quite figured out yet. But I also like what you’re saying, because it leaves an openness that allows the person who’s coming in for work to show up how they are and allows you to show up how you are, no matter what’s going on in the outside world, like you said, like you come in with all of that imperfection. And what I found is those readings where I am fully open and fully, like vulnerable. And it’s not about me like talking about myself, but like, where I’m fully like allowing whatever is to come through. That seems like those are the readings that are like the most powerful and that people seem to get the most out of because I’m not doing this like show. You know what I mean? That for me myself? Yeah. Um, and I love I love how you described that too, because I think there are so many ways that words really fail what what the work really is. 

Scout Chavers  53:40  

And it’s better just leave people confused. I feel like I don’t, that’s why my bio ends up being so long, because I’m just like, I don’t really want to list everything that I do. Because that’s kind of obnoxious. Like, I don’t need to be like, hear all the styles of yoga that I teach and hear all of the different divination, like tools that I like to use, like, I don’t like doing that. But I also like, don’t love the terminology either, either. So I’m kind of like, well, I’ll just kind of say some stuff. And hopefully people will ask me about it. And then they’ll kind of know or, you know, like and I do also think that saying that you’re a healing guide. What it allows people to do is form the expectation that they’re also going to have to show up and prepared to do work. Yeah, it takes a little bit of the pressure of like, you’re going to need to be doing work. This is a this is a heavily inclusive thing for you. It’s not just about me showing up and like giving you a band aid. Yeah,

yeah. And I also think there’s like a sense of openness that you have to have at all times, because I don’t know if your experience has been like this, but mine has where all of a sudden something is happening that has never happened before in a session with a client and I’m like, Okay, now I have to just pretend like this is normal. I’m not like normal, but like now I just have to kind of like take it in stride. And you know, figure out how to work with it. And again, you cannot have things like that happen and have your ego involved in it like you. Oh, yeah, I have to just be like, all right, like help me figure out what Do all of a sudden I’m seeing these past lifetimes and I don’t know what that’s about, like, that’s never happened before, yeah, yeah. Or, um, and so I think there is like a certain amount of surrender and like you said participation that that sets people up for because there’s, you know, even if I wanted to try to do it all myself, there’s only so much I can do if you’re not there. Like if you’re not ready to participate in your own healing.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. It’s, it’s a, it’s a mutually beneficial exchange between the two of you, but also like it, they have everything to gain, but they have to show up for themselves. And that’s really what it’s about is we also don’t really learn in our culture, how to show up for ourselves, we know how to show up for everything else, we’re taught how to show up for school on time work on time, we’re taught to show up and do certain things at certain times of the year, like, keep our car registered, and make sure you go to the dentist, and all of these different things. But we’re not taught about self care, we’re not taught about how to make sure that we are okay energetically, spiritually, and how to find embodiment in our own self work. We’re not taught any of those things. So it can be difficult. But you know, that’s why that’s why people seek out guidance.

Yeah. And that’s part of the reason why I wanted to have interviews on this podcast in general, because I didn’t want to just be saying, This is my experience. And what I felt the entire time was like a buying, like, when I was going through, again, another word, I hate spiritual awakening. Going through this whole process, where like, these things that I, like you said, didn’t know that everybody wasn’t experiencing that I was experiencing, um, and was really kind of coming to terms with them. I kept like buying these books and trying to like, read and trying to use like somebody else’s way of doing things, which Yes, like other people can guide us and can, and can teach us about boundaries and, and staying safe and protecting ourselves and all of that, and that is so important. But I wanted somebody to just like, tell like, I wanted an instructional guide to Sheila’s intuitive gifts, and I was not getting it. And I was really frustrated. And one of the things that I really wanted to do with this podcast, and one of the things that I’ve realized recently is that I felt so lonely and like such a sense of isolation when I was going through this, and like I could only tell like, there was almost nobody in my life knew what was going on at for even my partner like I was like, Well, I’m not really sure it’s been like two years. I’m not really sure if I’m ready to like, spring on him, but that I’m seeing ghosts, like that’s, 

that’s a big one, like, let’s get into a little bit little at a time. Yeah,

Sheila M  57:45  

I was like, I’m really afraid that I’m going to be committed or something or that I might be losing my mind. And so I was really nervous about telling anybody. And it was very isolating, because for a long time, it was like just me, like figuring stuff out. And then I kind of started to find a little bit of community, which was great, but I really wanted to have people on so that other people could talk about their intuitive experience, because it is not, there’s not just one lane, there’s like millions and billions of individual ways that you’re going to connect. And I think hearing those stories from other people and having friends who are in these types of communities who have shared their experiences has been so helpful and so powerful to me. So, um, I just wanted to say that because I really, I do appreciate you like sharing so much about that as well. Yeah,

Scout Chavers  58:37  

thank you, I feel the same, I feel the same way To be honest, I really do. Because that was what took me so long to really settle into feeling like I was an intuitive and I also don’t really love I don’t identify heavily with the word medium. And a lot of that is because for a long time, I saw a medium as a very specific thing that I felt felt like I wasn’t. And I think that speaks a lot to what you were just saying before of like, everyone has their own avenues. And so like just realizing that for me, I don’t really like see things I don’t see and a lot of the mediums that I was aware of as a child saw things when I was like, that’s not me. I just definitively was like, that’s not me, I don’t do that. And so because I receive information in a different way. I just never thought that I that applied to me. And so I do think that it’s important to hear all the different ways that people receive this data into their bodies and into their consciousness. Just to know just to resist the temptation to constantly make ourselves wrong. Because I do think that’s something else that we we learn is just we’re trying to make ourselves wrong every step of the way. Yes,

Sheila M  59:41  

yeah. I love that. You said that too. Because I was having the same thing where I was like, I’m not physically seeingsomething so like, I must not be this thing. And and like that was like a whole experience for me to be like, Oh no, there’s there’s all these different ways they have a sense of things and that is clairvoyant It’s like definitely not my, my, like main thing. And so it was very interesting to me because I was like, oh, okay, then there is a whole process here that I didn’t even realize. Um, yeah, I want to talk, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the doula community that you run and the ethical non monogamy space that you run, because this kind of ties into to some of the embodied I mean, everything that we’ve talked about ties into the cards that I really feel like you embody. But I want to talk specifically about that, because I think it will kind of ring true with some of this stuff. So can you talk about your doulasupport circle? And how, how that work has really kind of redefined healing guidance for you as well.

Scout Chavers  1:00:55  

Yeah, I so so that work essentially got started. Because I realized while in the doula community, very, very quickly, I was seen as someone who just had a lot of information and I I never saw myself that way. I think a lot of that information that I had or came came with immediately, as soon as I became a professional doula, I would say because I was going to births on and off throughout my whole life, really. Um, so when I started doing it as a job, I think a lot of that information came to me from my intuition and for my lineage, and a lot of that stuff came to me from my ancestors, both like physically in terms of learning from them, but also just like, I think, intuitively into my body, and through channeling and so once I saw that I was a resource, I just asked myself, like, what are you gonna do with it? So I started exploring different trainings of like, you know, just the doula world in general. Like, I thought it was very strange. I took two trainings when I first started working just because I wanted to be seen as legitimate because code switching and to man patriarchy, and to I just, you know, me and my rebellious self, I was like, why are we doing this? If this is so useless and ridiculous, in terms of like, there’s nobody who regulates doulas. Like there’s nobody who can tell you that you’re allowed to be a doula are not allowed to be doula, there’s a test you have to pass. And some people don’t like that. I actually love it because doulas, it’s more spiritual and intuitive work anyway, we’re not medical professionals in any way, shape, or form. So I just really think that it’s all about having someone energetically being there with you. And what I realized very quickly is that I was seen as a resource and I didn’t want to train people in a traditional trading environment. And what was really missing not only for doulas, but for almost any profession, especially people who work in wellness and providing wellness for other people is there was literally just no self care built into anything. What I saw was that I just had a bunch of friends who were massage therapists, a bunch of friends who were doulas among students who were yoga teachers, a bunch of friends who like peddle out wellness to everyone who were like slowly breaking down inside. And I was like, What is wrong with this story. So I just started to weave self care, rituals, divination, and like all of that magic that I like to practice into my routines for working for being a doula and starting to iron out and outline concepts of how I extend care to clients, and then how I then reflect that care back onto myself. So that I was always keeping my cup full enough to be able to continue to give so that we may experience some sort of sustainability in this career. Because the average burnout rate for a doula I think still now is like two to two and a half years, three years Max, doing it as full time work before they then decided to like look for another job or, you know, find something else to supplement or they’re, they’re so tired, they stop taking clients, so then they lose money, and then they have to go find another job. So it’s just a very fast burnout rate. And because we are so needed, due to health care in this country being trash, and you know, many, many reasons, I was just like, we have to do better, we have to have to do better. So I decided to to just kind of coin the random things that I do, which are not super special, they are very, very normal um in terms of self care and working myself care into my structure of not only business but actual like wellness care for clients and call it the wild awake. doula method. So through the wild wake doula method, it’s really just about how to care for yourself and also how to care for clients intuitively, and wholly and fully. And I sort of just created a little like guinea pig mentoring group. I’ve been doing little, like little sense of mentoring people on and off through trainings for the last couple of years. And I really wanted this group to just sort of extend to me their needs, like what’s been happening with you, what do you need, help me figure out what I need to give to the rest of the community so that I could figure out Do I need to really start a training because I’ll do it if that’s what you’ll need. And I’ll just make it different than everybody else’s trainings. Do you all need mentoring and more one on one work? Do you need access to data like what do you need so that I can help you get it in So that exploration with them has been fantastic. It’s been one round of them so far, and they’ve been really, really great of helping me see clarity as well as allowing me to give back to them. And it’s also the cornerstone of what helped me you know, start the nonprofit in terms of collecting money to not only help them continue attending births for for people of color, and their families, but also providing access and redistribution of wealth. So, so that’s that sort of how that came to be. And how I started to hold that space in the doula community.

I love that. And I, I think there is something in particular, because when we first met you were talking about that work that you were doing. And I was like, this is so important. And it is like across the board, not taken care of for people. And one of the things that I was seeing also was a lot of the people who were coming in for me as clients for energy work. And Tarot, were people who are in a traditionally caretaking type of career. So I was having all of these like, burned out caretakers who are just like, exhausted, and didn’t really like no lie. I didn’t really have conversations about it. They were working with me and we would talk about it. But it would be like, you know, when they had time to get in, and I really started encouraging people, like, let’s not leave before you have the next one booked, because we know how it gets. And I’m the same way. I’m like, I watched myself do the same shit. So I know, I know what’s happening. So when you talked about the community that you created, I was just like, God, this is so needed like this is so like, this is such important work. Because I see it so much. And I can’t even imagine in, in the community that you support where there are kind of crazy hours and you don’t necessarily know how long you’re going to be there at birth is not predictable. Sometimes it’s the middle of the night, sometimes it’s during COVID. Like there’s all this different stuff happening. How much that is needed. Now more than ever.

Yes, I think that that’s, that’s one of the many ways that I feel like, my life has prepared me honestly, for this weird craziness of 2020 in COVID. I don’t like saying just COVID because I don’t think it’s just COVID but 2020 in general. Yeah. Like we’ve all I’ve been prepared for COVID because my life has been, you know, enveloped in unpredictability. I think that not only you know, going past, just being like a queer black woman in America and the unpredictability of that. But also, just being the space of being a doula and being on call and not knowing when someone’s gonna call you for labor not knowing when during the day you might have to stop and change gears. And so I think that we are we as doulas are very, very prepared for unpredictability. And that is a skill set that needs to be utilized. And it can’t be especially for this planet as like, you know, things are starting to catch on to fire. But literally and figuratively. It can’t be used if we’re all exhausted. And if we’re all like, sitting in the corner, you know, dehydrated and exhausted from all of our work. Basically, I think that 2020 has shown us that we as a culture, we have a lot more work to do. So it’s time to rest. It’s time to recharge, it’s time to create sustainability and get to work.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love it so much. Um, and then you also hold your ethical non monogamy circle. What drew you into that? Obviously, it is a similar type of space holding work that you’re doing. But what really drew you to that which is like a little bit of a departure from just like the doula community.

Yeah, I it’s so weird. It’s such a departure. But then I feel like it’s not. I went through so many years of my life where I felt like I was doing too many different things that weren’t relatable in terms of just being like a doula, but also like a sex educator and also being a non monogamous person who likes to share community and space with those people. And then I slowly like as I turned 30 realize like, Oh, this is all the same stuff like over and over and over again in different spaces. And really what led me to hold that space is just being a non monogamous person and wanting to be in community with other non monogamous people, but also realizing that a lot of non monogamous people that were in community with me and Austin here are also in the spiritual community are also in the energetic community are also in the caretaking in a lot of caretaking facilities and in workspaces and so I just slowly started to realize that I see non monogamy ethical non monogamy I should say, as like one of my many spiritual paths, it makes me better it challenges me and it also just, frankly, forces me to do Shadow Work like pretty much all the time and so because of that All of those things, and the unpredictability and just the freedom aspect. It taught me to love. And in a different way It taught me to love in a more aware way. Yeah. And so I really like to bring all of these self care tools and the divination tools that I bring to the doula community also to that community as well. It was actually the cornerstone of this period of my life in this brand that I have been building is like love wild awake came first before scout wild awake before birth, wild awake, there was love wild awake. And that came to me channeled like through my intuition and meditation, had no idea didn’t come up with it wasn’t being creative, like randomly just came to me. And it was because I asked myself when I was still in my former marriage, where we started exploring ethical non monogamy together, like two or three years before, before, we inevitably went our separate ways. I just kept coming out of meditation, realizing like, I feel like I’m just really wide awake, like, I’m really, I’m loving in this wild, Primal way with like, you know, less rules and structure than I was grown up with, but or that I was raised with, excuse me, but I, but I also feel like I’m really awake, I don’t really have time to go to sleep. And in my marriage, I felt like, although we were very young, and, you know, in, in our discovery modes, I felt like we were already getting to that place of like, we were falling asleep at the wheel. Like I was like, Oh, my God, we’re like ignoring each other already. Like, we’re not even growing. We’re just falling into this mundane. And I don’t think that’s true about like all people who were monogamous, but that’s what we were doing. So I yeah, realizing that I was realizing that and I was slowly waking up to it.

Sheila M  1:11:39  

I love that you said that, too. Because I think I think that sometimes, because I think there’s so much judgment that can come from the cis straight community about that. I think that there is kind of this idea that you must judge them back. But it’s Yeah, it’s not. It’s not really like that. Yeah. 

Scout Chavers  1:12:01  

It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. either. I feel like we live in that society of good, bad, right, wrong. And it’s like, monogamy is not wrong. And ethical non monogamy isn’t wrong either. Like they can both exist in the same space. And maybe one is just not for you. But

Exactly, exactly. And that’s the thing. It’s like, I think, because I I kind of grew up in this way that you know, I grew up in a very conservative, very Catholic household. And so my experience of what was a relationship and what was normal, normal in quotes. And what was expected, was, like, totally in contrast to how I felt, even as a kid would be like, who like genuinely, truly, still, to this day, I’m like, Who cares if someone is gay, that is the end of my business. Like, I can’t even describe how much it’s none of my business. Like I can’t, like I just, it’s so irrelevant. And even I was talking to a friend recently about gender. And I was like, it’s so interesting, because we get like, so obsessive about gender. And I have always felt like cognition and gender and sexuality were like a spectrum and not an either or kind of thing. Because that’s the way that it feels to me energetically. And even as like, as a kid. Before I knew that I was picking up on that stuff, like I would pick up on all this subtlety. And the world that I was presented with was one that was very, this or that, and like, good or bad. And it just like, I think it’s one of the reasons that I just never connected with religion, because I was like, this doesn’t seem like you were saying, like, this doesn’t feel true to me, at least, intuitively, even when I was really young, I was like, This isn’t right. Yeah, something’s wrong here. 

My grandmother would look at you and say what she used to say to me when I was a child, which is like, Oh, you’ve been here before. And my grandmother used to say that to me all the time. She’s like, you’ve just lived too many lives that you came back and you’re like, by the way, this is bullshit. Like from a very young age, like very, very, and just already knowing and

Sheila M  1:14:25  

it’s so fun. It’s so interesting. And even like, within my family, so I’m the oldest of four. And even within my family, only one of my siblings is like, still religious and the rest of us are not. And, and it’s just, it’s, it’s very interesting to see you know, how things have kind of expanded and my middle sister says all the time, like, you know, only now cuz she’s a lot younger than me and my sisters are 11 and nine years younger than me. So like, there’s a lot And she’s like, you know, only now that I’m an adult Can I appreciate like, how how much work you did on the front end to try to like, shake them a little bit, you know, prepare them a little break through things because she’s like, I realized that my experience with them was like, completely different than yours. And I thought it was hilarious because I was such like, such a good like such a good girl, when I would put all you know what I mean? I got great grades. I never got in trouble at school. I never got arrested. I didn’t. I didn’t drink. I didn’t do anyget into anything. No fun

Scout Chavers  1:15:39  

Same, same- trying so hard to be good trying

Sheila M  1:15:43  

to be good. Like desperately, and my parents still, like always treated me like I was like such a rebel or like, so high maintenance. And yes, I’m like, Are you kidding? are getting arrested, people are getting DUIs, at like all like, you should be so lucky to have somebody that just has like a peace of mind. You know what I mean? And what’s hilarious about it is now that I’m older, like my mother would say to me, Well, I just never like I never worried about you. Because like, you’ve always kept your own council. Like, as a parent, it’s annoying as shit. but then when you’re older, I knew you weren’t going to take any shit from anyone. Yeah. Like, like, from the time you were like, 10, you would be like, no. Like, I can remember like, telling her about somebody like bullying at school. And like, she was like, do you want like, do you want to talk about it? I was like, Well, I think he’s just insecure. And she was like, Oh, well, yeah. Okay, so to

Scout Chavers  1:16:45  

sure, thank you for reading that whole situation yourself. 

Sheila M  1:16:48  

Exactly, exactly. But anyway, other than to say that, I think it’s so cool. Like you said, they are like seemingly very different things. But you kind of bring this similar energy to all of the different types of work that you do, which I think is so cool. And which helps me narrow down on what cards I really feel like you embody. And I had trouble in the beginning. So it’s like, I really don’t want to have too many, you know, but so first of all, definitely, with the lovers card, because I, I see how much you hold up this mirror of reflection, and really show people in all of these different areas, like, I’m holding up this mirror to show you what’s going on, like I’m reflecting this stuff back to you, because you’re not taking care of yourself the way you should. And you’re not advocating for yourself the way you should. And you are asking like other people to do it for you. And this is what you really have to like it’s not outside of you, it’s inside of you, and all of them inside job. And so I really, I really feel that with the lovers card. And like, like that was like the first thing because I like cards will like pop into my head all the time when I’m talking about people. And I remember early on on one of our calls, when you were talking about the program that you were working on, I was like, Oh my gosh, it’s like the lovers card. Like you’re like literally doing this work of holding people accountable to themselves and to their own needs for love, affection, self care, relationships, like all of these different areas. So I love that one for you,

Scout Chavers  1:18:27  

thank you,

Sheila M  1:18:29  

And then the Empress card. Because I always think of the Empress card as it’s about a lot of the thresholds in life, right. And so I think that there, so much of the doula work that you do, like you said, it’s all of these different initiations that we go through, and that we then need to kind of like recognize and bring this kind of joy and, and abundance of energy and awareness and happiness to, but it’s also about getting comfortable with receiving so like, yeah, which is so hard, like so hard for women, especially, or female, identifying people, especially, or female socialized people, especially all of your value and your growing up is taught to you in what you can do and how you can care for and be of service to other people. And so I think it is so valuable in what you do now that you are offering people the opportunity to receive this care so you’re both holding up the mirror with the lovers card to really show them that this is necessary and so needed and so worthwhile. And then with the Empress card, really teaching them both through I think personally through your behavior and and like leading by by doing and also by holding this space in community to say no like this is something that you need to show up for consistently. And this is something that you need to do for yourself. And there is nothing that you can do and no way that you can show up for another person if you’re not showing up for yourself.

Scout Chavers  1:20:08  

Yes, and it’s so funny that you say that about about my cards, and I feel so complimented. Thank you, the lovers is actually the most common card that I ever draw ever since I first got my first deck ever. And the Empress I love what you said, because that closely heavily relates, when I did my Kundalini training, I’m sure if you’re familiar with Kundalini Yoga, I was appointed a name, of course, like a Gurmukhi name. And the meaning of my name was like, live by example. Like you were the living example. Like if you continue to do the things yourself, which is a great practice for me, especially as a Virgo. Because I can preach, preach, preach, but if I’m not actually taking care of myself, What are you doing? So actually, my own self care being woven into my profession is a strategy of mine. But also, you know, how I burst everything that I do you know, what I mean? is holding other people accountable. I hold myself accountable as well.

Sheila M  1:21:02  

Yeah, yeah. I love that. And, and I love these two cards. And I also think they’re cards that are often like misunderstood, too. So I’m happy to have kind of a living, breathing example of them for people to reflect on as well, because I think it also helps bring kind of language to some of these cards that can be challenging for people.

Scout Chavers  1:21:23  

So yeah, I love that you do that. I love that you do that I that’s that’s how I learned every that’s how I learned astrology. And how I learned Taro was like, just looking at people’s charts like it like specially famous people and just being like, Oh, these are the attributes that I can notice about their personality. And then, with cards, I love paying attention to how you like to associate, honestly, like, like, almost like personifying the cards by giving them like human emotions, because it helps me feel like they’re expressing themselves more authentically, as I read more cards. So I just love that you do that.

Sheila M  1:21:53  

So I’ll see them with people and also see them with experiences, like on the episode I did with our friend, Winifred. And we were talking about her closing her physical store. And I was thinking in the moment, I was like, Oh, this is such like an eight of cups thing. Because like, yeah, you just knew it was the right thing that is so hard to do. And she she’s like, Oh, it was it was like it’s total eight of cups moment for me. And I was like, Yes. And so I love like, how that is because I feel like it gives people such a different context to understanding to. So this is so wonderful. And I I can’t even I can’t even tell you how much I appreciate it. I love having conversations with you, because they’re always just amazing. And really powerful. And I think, a very different perspective than a lot of other people that I’ve had on so far. And will have on because I’m, again, trying to pull people from kind of all these different areas and not just yeah, traditionally witchy things but things are kind of on the fringe and also like entrepreneurs, you know, and they Yeah, nobody is just one of those things. So can you tell people how they can work with you how they can get in touch with you? And what is the best way to stay involved with your work? And I will link everything up in the show notes, but I just like to let them know. 

Scout Chavers  1:23:13  

Thank you. Awesome. Yeah, of course, I have many a Instagram, so you can definitely find me @scoutwildawake is really how you can find me, you can find me at And you can also find me on Instagram under scout wild awake, I believe the Facebook page is wild awake wellness. So you can find me in those spaces just to keep up with me what I’m doing. You can also inquire about working with me as well in any capacity. So you do not have to be a doula to work with me in any way. Whether it’s you want to get a reading with me or maybe you’re looking for some coaching or some guidance in any in any way. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, small business owners, a lot of parents just in general people who are exploring their own relationship with themselves or with sensuality, things of that nature. And you can just keep keep updated. Keep your ear to the ground because I have a lot of new things launching as we finish off this, this crazy, crazy year. And we’re settling into 2021. So you can find all of the different links to other projects that I’m involved in like conscious coven, which is a sister project of mine that I do with another beautiful black witch. That’s a friend of mine. And we help people of color reclaim magic is their birthright that you can find all of those links at scout wild awake on Instagram. So thank you and thank you so much for having me. I’ve been dying to talk to you. So this is I know I know.

Sheila M  1:24:40  

This has been so great and especially it’s like a bright light and in the haze of the day after the first so we’re recording this The day after the first debate. Yeah, a heavy day. So this is like in my day, so thank you so much for being on Scout. Appreciate it.

Scout Chavers  1:24:59  

I appreciate you, too. Thank you.

Sheila M  1:25:05  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Intuition vs. Anxiety

intuition vs anxiety

On episode 16 of Living Tarot, I talk about how anxiety affects intuition. In the current environment so many of us are feeling overwhelming stress and anxiety due to the global pandemic, white supremacy and systemic racism, climate change, and an upcoming US election. For many people this is the most anxious they have ever been. Even people who are well resourced with their mental health are struggling. In this episode I discuss how to tune in to Intuition even with all of this anxiety in our daily lives. Recognizing anxiety and intuition is the number one question I get from students.  Anxiety is the cloud that hangs over our ability to connect with intuition and can block us and frighten us away from tuning in.

  • I discuss the patterns of anxiety versus the patterns of intuition in our bodies.
  • I talk about the importance of an embodiment practice to help us recognize signals that come up when we’re feeling anxious or when we’re getting an intuitive impulse.
  • I even speak about my own experience of recognizing how anxiety shows up for me and how I tune into my intuition when that happens.
  • If you have been wondering how to tell intuition from anxiety this is the episode for you.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Get Sheila’s Tarot for Anxiety spread here

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. Continuing on with our theme for the month of October, I wanted to talk today about intuition versus anxiety. This is one of the most popular polls that you guys voted on on my Instagram. And it is also one of the most common questions that I’ve gotten in classes, where I’ve taught about intuition. It’s one of the things that I work through with a lot of my one on one students. And I understand why it comes up because it also comes up for me, I think it’s pretty common. And to say that 2020 is not a year, rife with anxiety, and really, really tough challenges. This has been on my mind to cover because we do have a global pandemic going strong, we do have a social justice uprising, for the Black Lives Matter movement for justice in America. And also, we have in the United States, a very contentious election. So there’s a lot to be anxious about right now, quite frankly, and a lot of external stressors that are beyond our own control. 

So for many people who even are in treatment for anxiety, or have dealt with anxiety, over a long period of time, while they are very resourced to manage anxiety, they are not necessarily well resourced to manage chronic anxiety over six months to nine months of time without feeling a little bit of burnout, for sure, I think the term is is surge capacity, you’ve reached your surge capacity for how much you can take and how much your body can handle of being in a high stress situation, especially because this is a long term problem, especially for those of us in the United States. And it is there’s no solution in sight that we can see right now. And so we’re not getting the relief of knowing that something is going to be over soon, we’re not really getting a break from it. And so it’s pretty normal to be feeling extremely anxious right now. And I am a big believer in destigmatizing all mental health care issues. And it was important for me to talk about how this does play into intuition. Because there is a connection and we do see it a lot. And you have to in order to survive and to thrive even when that’s going on. You have to have that connection to your intuition as that kind of guiding light bringing you through these experiences. 

So we can’t talk about intuition and anxiety without talking about our ego. And in the spiritual community in particular, the ego gets such a bad rap. Everybody’s always talking shit on your ego, smash your ego, crushed your ego, kill your ego, you know shove it down, hide it underneath all this other stuff and that is a total bunch of garbage. It is not true. It’s not an effective way of dealing with it. And honestly what you create if you try to tell your ego no Be quiet, go down there, come back later. You know when you postpone or you or you delay or you try to ignore your ego has a tendency to just get louder, and the ego really is just doing its job, it’s important to recognize that because the job of the ego is to keep us present to keep us safe, to keep us in our physical body. To keep us aware of any trouble that might come up, it is a, it’s a self preservation tool. And I think that so many of us, you know, there’s a lot of talk in the wellness community about trying to crush this. And I just, I don’t think that it’s such an effective way to deal with it. And I don’t think it recognizes the truth of the ego, which is that it isn’t a bad thing. You need to have an ego so that you could advocate for yourself so that you can ask for what you need, so that you know when your needs aren’t being met. 

So putting that aside, what I do find to be a more effective technique for dealing with your ego, when you’re trying to listen to intuition, is to acknowledge it. So to acknowledge that it’s going to come up and a lot of us have, you know, a story that the ego tells us what’s that scary story, you know, what’s your ego scary story. And maybe it is something about, for example, I’ll use my my own life for personal examples. So when I was getting ready to leave my corporate job, I had a lot of fear. and rightfully so I had a lot of fear about going out on my own, I had a lot of anxiety going on, even though I knew it was the right decision, I was extremely anxious. And so I had this ego fear anxiety story that was playing in my head, like all the time, 24’7, I was like, Oh, my gosh, don’t they play anything else on this channel, I’m so sick of hearing this and it went something like, you can’t leave your job, you’ll never find something so secure and stable again. And you’ll never be able to afford this type of lifestyle, or you’ll never be able to buy a car, you’ll never be able to buy a house. And then you’ll have kids and your kids won’t get to live in a house, they’ll live in an apartment forever, and they won’t want to have other kids over from school and, and it kind of goes into this whole spiral. And suddenly you find yourself 10 steps ahead of anything resembling your current day life. And, you know, that that that trains gone off the tracks a little bit, and that your ego is really, really running the show at that point. And the way that I really dealt with that, and, and tuned back in to check in with my intuition and say, you know, is this still right? Is this still the right thing? Was that I would say, Okay, thank you ego, thank you fear. Thank you anxiety for keeping me safe. Yes, I know. I know, that’s fair. I know, that’s a possibility. But I’m just gonna, I’m just going to listen to like, what else is going on in here. So just turn turn that down a little bit. So when you acknowledge it when you say, yeah, you know what, that is a real possibility, maybe I won’t make any money for a couple years, maybe I will have to rely on my partner. And that makes me uncomfortable, maybe I am going to have to get a part time job for a little bit. And as you start to kind of answer some of those things, and just just acknowledging that you are paying attention to that. It’s, it’s, it doesn’t become quite so loud anymore. And you start to be able to hear what’s underneath it. And that’s where we find that voice of intuition, it tends to be a little bit softer. It’s usually in a different part of our body, like we talked about last week when we talked about embodiment. So I might feel I feel fear and anxiety and and my ego in one part of my body. So I feel that fear. And then in a completely different part of my body, I get the impulse of intuition. And so I can usually notice where it’s coming up. And if I do have that anxiety that’s kind of running rampant and I’m having trouble checking in. I will acknowledge that. I will say Yes, I know. You’re totally right. That’s so true. That’s so true. And then I will say, Okay, I’m just gonna listen to what else is here for a little bit. And sure enough, underneath that, I will hear that voice of intuition. as clear as day, maybe softer than everything else, but it will be in there. And one of the things that has helped me so much, is recognizing how normal it is to have that running. That running dialogue, that running display of everything that can go wrong. And acknowledging it and then tuning in. Because, you know, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like a little kid in that way. And that like you give them that little bit of attention, and then they’re good for for a few minutes. And you can pay attention to whatever show you’re watching or whatever, whatever thing you were trying to talk to your husband about, or whatever it is, where you can just kind of appease appease that sense of anxiety, and then tune into what’s really true underneath. And if you are in those moments, where you’re like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t know, if I’ve ever been so anxious, I am stressed to the max, I don’t know what to do. You can write down what comes up when you tune in in that moment. And you can really, you can really take that that edge off just the slightest bit and and hear that intuition. And write down you know, that clear message that comes through once you clear out that anger and frustration and anxiety and ego talk, you can hear that really gentle, intuitive message and write that part down. And just keep reminding yourself that because then it’s almost like you have like a save point in your brain where you’re like, Oh, yes, we just did this yesterday. And then I got this message from my intuition. And then you can listen for what else. And the more you do that, like we talked about last week, it is like a muscle you get used to turning that down. When my sisters- I have sisters who are much younger than me. And when they were young, my mom worked from home. And she was so used to tuning their voices out because she she would focus it on work that even now as adults, sometimes we tease her all the time that she kind of tunes them out, unintentionally, because she just got so used to it. And it’s just like that, the more you you start to turn that down, the more you can tune into intuition and pay more attention to that, the more it grows, and the more your ability to do that over and over grows. And you will have times where it wanes where you’re, you know, right now especially, it’s been very challenging for so many of us. And it is worth mentioning that you know, it is worth mentioning that these are extraordinary times, and that your level of anxiety is probably higher maybe than it’s ever been. And it can be even harder to hear your intuition. And because we are maxed out, you might be mistaking other things for your intuition as well. So I did want to talk about that a little bit. 

Hey there, did you know that I offer virtual tarot readings over zoom? Tarot is for you. If you’re at a crossroads and want to see your current challenge clearly, navigate complex decisions and plan how to move forward with confidence. Sometimes our emotions can get in the way of us seeing a clear path forward. And tarot acts as a neutral bystander that provides information and insight into our blind spots. I work with so many clients on business readings, decision making in business, and in career working towards promotions, getting insight on how to make the best moves. I also work with a lot of people on relationship readings, getting insight into both interpersonal relationships, and professional relationships. And I do year ahead readings as well. So you can celebrate your business’s birthday by getting some insight on the energy of the year ahead. What projects to focus on what to put on the backburner. These can be really potent and powerful offerings that provide you with a lot of insight to focus your energy for the year ahead. And right now I’m also offering Virtual Tarot parties. We have all experienced zoom fatigue, we’re tired of a staring at each other and having drinks over zoom. But tarot parties are a great option to celebrate life’s rites of passage while staying safe and socially distant. If you’re interested, check out the link in the show notes today or head over to 

I also wanted to say that you have to look at if you’re having trouble telling the difference between anxiety And intuition, you have to look at what the message is. So when we’re hearing from anxiety, we’re hearing something that is largely laced with fear. And every, like the example I gave from my life where I was afraid I wouldn’t have enough money to buy a car and then to buy a house. And then that would affect my children’s ability to, to make friends when they go to school. I don’t I’m not married, don’t have children don’t have any plans to at the moment. And I’m like 10 steps ahead, but it’s all run on fear there, right. However, on the other hand, you will have intuition, which is more like a gentle nudge, a gentle voice, a suggestion, an idea, something loving or compassionate. And it doesn’t have this same frenzy to it, at least how it works for me and how I’ve seen it work for most people, it tends to be a little less frantic, it would probably be the best, the best way to put it. So notice the quality of that as well. And for those of you who are experiencing really intense anxiety right now, first of all, I am a huge proponent of therapy, I can’t recommend it enough. I think it’s extremely important and extremely undervalued. In our Western society. It’s stigmatized, and a lot of ways. And I just think that’s total bullshit. I think that if you need help, you should absolutely seek out help. And if there was ever a time to need help, it is right now. So please take care of yourselves. I also would say, when it comes to times like these that are extremely anxious, and you are looking to get some of that excess energy out, it’s important for us to have some sort of physical practice. And I don’t mean, I don’t mean that you have to be like going to CrossFit or going to the gym every day, or having some like, elaborate workout routine. But our bodies are biologically structured, to respond to stress with the hormones and the adrenaline, so that, you know, we can escape the lion that we run into in the wild, you know, way back in the day. But now, we aren’t having as much of that physical activity in our lives. And so we don’t finish out that stress response, until we can kind of shake that out. And so what happens is, we, we build this whole thing up. And, and we have all this anxiety and our body is in like fight or flight. And then we we can suit you know, we have different ways of soothing, so maybe you just breathe, maybe you do some sort of deregulating exercise some sort of somatic exercise, which is excellent, because that can get your anxiety back to a manageable level. But there’s still the matter of what is biologically going on in your body. So you still are kind of jacked up on those adrenaline and other hormones. And so one of the things that I find very helpful, which sounds crazy, is to just kind of shake it out. So I will literally just like shake my body and I’ll shake my arms, I’ll shake my legs, almost like if you were imagining you got like shocked by electricity. Sometimes I just kind of sway my arms back and forth. Sometimes I do a little yoga practice or I take a quick jog around the block. And if you are not an able bodied person, you can also do you know, you can do muscle contraction and release if you have access to that. So you can just kind of scan around your whole body and do like progressive muscle tension and relaxation. Or you can even in your mind, kind of scan the whole body and imagine each of your muscles doing that. Because your brain doesn’t actually know the difference between you thinking you’re doing it and you actually doing it. So you don’t have to be you know an athlete or you don’t have to be physically able in any way to to do this type of exercise. And I would recommend that you do it regularly in in this day and age, but especially If you are sitting down to do some sort of intuitive work, if you’re doing divination, if you are getting energy healing done, if you are trying to get an answer on something, if you’re sitting down for a creative project, all of those are really wonderful times to get that access out. So that you can really work from a lower anxiety baseline and be able to access your intuition in an easier in an easier way. So that’s one of the things that I find can be extremely effective when it comes to dealing with intuition and anxiety. And finally, I talked about it in the episode where I talked about when to get a reading from a professional reader. But it’s worth mentioning again, that if you are even if you are a reader, or you identify as a reader, and you’re just having like a really anxious time, it can be helpful to have somebody else hold the space for you. So whether that is getting energy healing, or working with some sort of somatic healer, or a yoga teacher or a tarot reader, there are so many different ways to work with your own intuitive connection. And sometimes when we are really in the depths of a really difficult time, or we’re really managing through a lot of anxiety, having another person there to hold the space to reflect things back to us. And to really give you your autonomy back to validate things that you were feeling intuitively, that can be extremely powerful, especially in growing your own intuitive ability, because what happens when you come in and you know, I’ve had clients come in and have, you know, a Reiki session with me or a tarot session with me. And they’re very anxious, and they have a lot of stuff going on. And they’re not quite sure. And I can tell that they’re unsettled from the moment they come in. And, you know, we have a conversation, we talk about what’s going on.

We talk about where they really want to focus things or where they’re looking for answers. And then I tell them what I’m seeing or feeling or what’s coming up. And then sure enough, I mean, nine times out of 10, I will tell them something, I’ve seen this, this and this and they’re like I knew it, I knew, I knew that was a problem. And I knew that was like, I knew that I just got in this fight with my spouse and and I’ve got this pain here. Or I just got in a fight with my partner. And now I I’ve been having this like foot pain for weeks. And I don’t know what what happened. But I felt like it was related to that. And it just didn’t make sense to me. Or, you know, I’ve had all kinds of things like that happen. And I’ve seen firsthand and have experienced firsthand as somebody who gets energy work and and gets professional readings from friends and other people. And I can’t, I can’t recommend it enough, when you’re having a hard time getting out of your own way, because just the tiniest bit of validation can send you on your way to fully trusting those intuitive impulses when they’re coming across. So I hope that helps give you some insight into intuition and anxiety. I have been working for a little while now on something more detailed for this. So I’ll have to let you all know when that is up and running. But in the meantime, you can always book a session with me to work either one on one with coaching or with Tarot, or with Reiki, all of which I am still doing over zoom virtual sessions. And could be a really great way to start to tune into this intuition and especially now, with so much going on in the outside world. As always, I would love to hear your feedback. I would love to hear what really resonated with you what sounded familiar what you recognized in your own experience. And I would love to hear about anything that you’d love for me to talk more about or anything that stood out to you as something that you’d like to hear a whole episode on. I am all ears so you can feel free to reach out to me I will see you back here next week. 

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

How Does Intuition Work?

Intuition works a little bit differently for everyone. I will speak strictly from my own experience today. This should in no way be seen as a catch-all.

Since I was really young I have always had a strong connection with my intuition.  My mom would say I was a good judge of character.  She saw that I was selective about friendships and I intentionally sought out kind people (many of whom I am still friends with 25 years later).

The truth is that I always knew stuff about people.  I could see right through.  I was very empathic.  I felt other people’s emotions and intentions, and even before I was totally aware that I was doing so, I reacted to that information.

I describe it to this day as…what people really mean is right behind what they say.  You have probably had the experience yourself, of meeting someone, and knowing they don’t like you.  You know their face is saying one thing but you feel that intuitive impulse that they don’t really mean it.  It’s similar to what we talked about last week.

So when I grew up feeling things from people, like when I was bullied in school, I would be hurt and frustrated but I always knew it was because they were sad, or scared, or embarrassed, and it made me braver.  The more I trusted that feeling, the stronger it became and the easier it was to hear it.

Now that I’m grown, I listen for that same impulse and feeling. I am aware of my intuition in a totally different area in my body than when my brain is actively thinking about something.  When I get that feeling, I pause for a moment and try to listen to what it’s telling me.

Sometimes I ask questions like: Am I feeling fear?  Am I feeling a yes or no?  Am I feeling like I need to wait?

I also have a lot of clairaudience, which means I hear a lot of signals. Sometimes my ears ring when I’m getting a message or feeling.  Or I will know something about someone that will come in as if I’ve heard it. It’s less about actual hearing and more about how my brain becomes aware of it.

Even now I will think sometimes that a client has said something to me, for example, that they are an accountant. I will start talking about their accounting job and they will look bewildered and say “I didn’t tell you I was an accountant.”  I just shrug it off and tell them it happens all the time.

So sometimes that’s how I notice my intuition but there are a lot of different senses of intuition.  I also sometimes physically feel things.  This happens in Reiki sessions most often.  I will start working on someone and notice I’m getting a pain somewhere in my body. Sure, enough when I ask them about it, it’s something that is going on in their body.

I also sometimes have an unexplainable sense of something.  Perhaps I spend time with someone I’m close to and I suddenly know something about them.  It’s not intentional.  It just pops into my head out of nowhere.  I can’t explain why or how.  This can be the hardest sense to hone because we often write off thoughts that aren’t backed up by a story of how we know it or why we know it.  We get stuck in trying to logically figure it out rather than just listening.

I realize you’re probably sitting there thinking, Sheila, that’s just you.  I can’t do those things.  I barely even trust what people tell me.

I understand.  Listening to your intuition is a vulnerable thing.  You open yourself up to something you’re not instantly good at and it can bring up a lot of feelings of inadequacy.  This is why we practice.  

That is the entire reason that I developed my High Priestess Embodiment Workshop.  This workshop is open now.  It is entirely virtual and combines lecture, meditation, journaling and a mini yoga practice to help you get in touch with your own intuition.  You will also have the opportunity to ask any questions that come up and get answers via a Q & A recording after the course closes.  You don’t need any tarot training or understanding as this is an intuition workshop and you have permanent access so you can go back and access it again at any time you need a refresher.  Training is open now but only until July 3rd at 11:59 PM ET.  You can read more about it and sign up here.

© Sheila Masterson 2020 All Rights Reserved

3 Reasons You Might be Afraid of Your Intuition

Last week I was chatting with a friend who was having a hard time in her relationship.  

 “I know, I am ignoring my intuition.  I get an impulse and I dig my heels in and do the opposite.  I feel like I’m afraid of my intuition, is that a thing?”

It reminded me of something that so many of my clients go through.  It’s something I go through all the time.

What happens when our intuition shows up and we feel afraid of it?  So I wanted to dig into this today.  Here are three reasons why you might be afraid of your intuition:

When we experience this there are a few reasons why we might be feeling some fear about trusting ourselves.

The first is that we were taught not to trust ourselves from the time we were young.  

Most of life has conditioned us to outsource our wisdom to people with more experience.  Teachers, pastors, and parents are who we learn to trust first.  We go to school or church, or even at home someone tells us how to get dressed, tie our shoes, count to ten, and we are indoctrinated into a system that teaches us to trust others more than ourselves.

Now, I’m not hating on traditional education but it is only in the past year or two that mindfulness has been taught in schools, giving children a much needed sense of agency and a better understanding of listening to self.

We grow up not really having an understanding of why it’s important to listen to our own intuition because society doesn’t value it.  So when you get an intuitive impulse, you might feel afraid because it may feel like challenging authority.  

Trauma can also be a culprit.

If you experienced trauma in your childhood, in particular, you might have a harder time developing your sense of reality.  If someone was making you doubt yourself constantly as you were growing up, it can be very challenging as an adult to trust your impulses because you’re afraid of being wrong again, or you’re afraid of the consequence of being wrong.

Similarly, if you experienced trauma as an adult, you may have a strong distrust of your intuition because you feel that it led you wrong.  When you start to notice it coming up, you may feel triggered because that sensation reminds you of the bad thing that happened.

This kind of distrust can be hard to break through, but it is UNDERSTANDABLE.  If you find yourself in this place, don’t force it.  Offer yourself compassion in those moments.  There’s no need to be open to intuition if you aren’t ready for it yet.

Being awake to our intuition means having to do something about it.

Ignorance is easy. Being awake is hard. 

Once you pay attention to your intuition, especially if you’ve been ignoring it for a while it can come in more like a flood than a trickle, which is very overwhelming. Our intuition is always asking us to be true to ourselves.

Sometimes that means leaving behind people, places, or work that you have loved for a long time.  Sometimes people you are close with can’t go along with you, or don’t understand you the same way they once did.  No one wants to lose anything and intuition challenges us by pushing us out of our comfort zone.

It’s a bit of a Pandora’s box.  Once you crack the lid, nothing is the same.  It unravels possibilities.

So you might find yourself doing things to block your intuition like constantly having the radio on, or the TV blaring in the background, filling every waking moment with activity, or even abusing substances like alcohol or marijuana to help you tune out and relax.

These aren’t really sustainable options.

The key is learning how to tune in when you need it and tune out when you need a break.  If you can get to a place where you have a good relationship with your intuition it can become like a super power, keeping you on track.  When confusion comes up or when you’re faced with a decision you don’t know how to make, you can tune in and know right away what to do.

You might be saying, Sheila, this sounds really overwhelming.  How can I start to take baby steps to trust my intuition without getting totally overwhelmed?

I’m so glad you asked!  My High Priestess Embodiment Workshop opens next Monday, June 29th.  This course is designed as a beginners guide to intuition and will help you recognize the signals that your body sends you when your intuition is trying to get your attention, how to tune in to the message, and how to stop second guessing yourself.  If you want to stop being afraid and start to trust your intuition, you can sign up here

© Sheila Masterson 2020 All Rights Reserved

Design Your Own Intuition Guidebook with the High Priestess Embodiment Digital Course

White Mountains – New Hampshire

Last week I launched my first ever online workshop.  It’s an adaptation of my High Priestess Embodiment workshop that is designed for participants to work at their own places to build their own intuitive language.  This has been equal parts thrilling and terrifying.  

Putting my own thoughts and ideas out there opens me up to criticism and imposter syndrome and it’s taken a little bit of procrastinating, a little bit of coaching, and a little bit of getting cues from my own intuition to give me the confidence to do so.

Almost a year ago when the idea for this course started bouncing around my head, I knew it was important for a couple of reasons.  I wanted to normalize listening to intuition. I wanted people to see that it is something we all have in our own way. Finally, I wanted to make intuition more accessible and less lonely.

When I first started having these experiences I felt incredibly alone and isolated.  I spent most of my life not really understanding that something different was happening for me, and feeling a bit alienated from people who I thought were having the same experiences but were not.

So when I got older and everything intensified, I wanted to give other people like me who are just starting out on their own path the tools to start to figure out how intuition works for them.  All I wanted in the beginning was a guidebook.

I wanted to try to logically approach something that is pretty esoteric, and that is only just starting to be studied by science.  I wanted to create a hypothesis, test data, and come up with some sort of proof for myself.

I read book after book from other mediums and intuitives trying to understand the exact path forward.  Some of them said to meditate for an hour a day, some had elaborate exercises and some suggested the only way was to find a one on one mentor.

I was frustrated.  Like so many of us, I was too focused on trying to find the “right” way to approach my particular gifts that I ignored what I knew in my heart to be true.   I lacked confidence in my own ability and I wanted someone to help me prove it to myself. I wanted a clear set of guidelines and rules to follow. I wanted a path forward.  I also wanted to feel more aligned with my own deeper desires in life.

What I have learned is that the book I was looking for, the manual for intuition doesn’t exist.  

Intuitive gifts are so individual.  The reason I couldn’t find the instruction manual I desired was because there is no one way forward.  There are many. 

This is why I developed the High Priestess Embodiment Workshop, was to give clients the tools to start to build this structure for themselves.  I wanted to save people from the loneliness and confusion I felt. I wanted to give them exercises to start to notice their intuition in their body as well as where they feel fear or anxiety.

Our culture is so focused on achievement.  Nothing is more revered and rewarded than hustle, multi-tasking, and constantly striving for something new.  It’s easy to feel completely out of touch with yourself and what you want in your life. It’s easy to be brainwashed into wanting what society, family, and friends tell you to want.

Usually we spend time striving towards these things and then are confused when we get them and don’t feel satisfied.  Have you ever experienced this? Obsessing over something thinking that achieving it will make you feel accomplished only to get it and still feel like it’s not quite right?

I designed the program for anyone who has an interest in getting back in touch with their intuition.  Intuition is like a personal super power. It empowers us to say “no” easily to things we don’t want and gives us clarity on what we do.  It allows us to release the doubt that society programs us to have and really learn to trust that we are making the right decisions for our personal situation at any given moment.

The exercises that I put into this course are the exact exercises I used to grow my own intuition and feel more confident in my readings, and also in decision making in my life.  They are designed to help participants to create their own version of a playbook and provide them the confidence to experiment and start to notice how and when intuition shows up in their daily lives.  They are designed to build trust in yourself.

I will also be providing answers to common questions that come up from those taking the course.  Each participant will have the opportunity to ask two questions which will be recorded and posted in the course for all to have access to.

The course itself is entirely self-paced.  It can be done all in one sitting, and it’s roughly 90 minutes of content plus the follow up question/answer recordings.  All participants will also have access for the lifetime of the course, so any updates that i do to the course in the future will be included, as well as all future question/answer recordings from future releases.

This course isn’t about me handing you all the answers.  It’s about you gaining the tools to start searching for your own answers and recognizing solutions when they come up in your own daily practice.

It brings me so much joy to watch students connect and start to put the pieces together for themselves.  I love watching them gain confidence and celebrate their wins.

If you are interested in signing up you can sign up here.  If you have any questions you can feel free to reach out to me via email sheila at

© Sheila Masterson 2020 All Rights Reserved

Connecting to Intuition in Emotional Moments

As someone who is highly emotional myself, learning to listen to my intuition during times of emotional turmoil has been one of my biggest challenges.

So often this is the work I am facilitating with tarot and Reiki clients.  In moments of upheaval, when they feel disconnected and overwhelmed, they come to me to help them sort through the chaos and tune in to their own inner knowing.

So how can we learn to connect even in these emotional moments when our ego is screaming at us, and we are operating entirely from a place of fear?  How do we quiet that noise and learn to listen on our own, without guidance from someone else?

I would love to give you some kind of shortcut here, but the truth is that it takes practice and time to learn how to build this muscle. The following are some ideas to get your started.

Write it Down

The easiest and most concrete way I have found is to write it down.  When I feel frustrated or desperate, or let down, or inadequate, I sit down with my journal and write out what I think is going on. I keep going deeper and deeper until I reach the root of what is really bothering me.  

That might look something like: I’m mad at my partner because they don’t pay enough attention to me.  Going deeper: I’m hurt because my partner forgot something important, and it makes me feel like they don’t value me.  And a little deeper: I’m really sad because I don’t feel like I’m being supported by the person that matters to me most and I’m worried that means they don’t love me.  

Just seeing the words on paper forces you to confront and deconstruct some of the fear that comes up. This exercise is about finding the truth underneath the story we tell ourselves.  If you’re not sure if you’ve gotten to the root of the issue you can keep asking questions but try not to be too hard on yourself. Sometimes the real breakthroughs come from going back over your notes later.

Come to Your Cards

There are a lot of tarot teachers who say that you should always come to your cards with a clear mind and when you are calm.  I respect their opinions but I also think that really takes away from one of their most valuable functions: self-reflection.  

Tarot is a great way to reflect when you are having an emotional moment.  The cards themselves don’t have feelings or bias. They give us something outside of ourselves to look at.  You might find yourself saying the same thing over and over when you see them and that itself can be clarifying.

In this moment you will notice the story you are telling yourself and sometimes this is downright comical.  Sometimes I’ve pulled four cards in a row before I realize I have basically said the same thing to myself in four different ways.  Or even more hilarious is, I don’t like the card I pull, so I pull another one and it has a VERY similar meaning. This has happened to me so many times.

Find Moving Meditation

So many people come to me and talk about how they can’t meditate when they are stressed.  I get it.

Sitting quietly with your thoughts when your anxiety is cranked up and your brain is going a mile a minute is almost impossible. 

This is the perfect time for moving meditation.  As a yoga teacher, that is my go-to but there are so many other options if yoga isn’t your thing.  Tai-Chi, walking meditation, or even just riding your bike and looking around at all the scenery can be enough to work the agitation out of the body.

Stillness does not equal calm, so don’t fall into the trap of thinking you’re weird because you can’t sit in meditation when your brain is racing.

There are so many ways to come back down to earth when your emotions are running the show.  Along with all of these techniques, I have found that just noticing the narrative of my emotions helps me to tune into my intuition.

Any time I have a fear-driven narrative come up, I know what I’m hearing is emotion and ego.  It’s usually loud and has a spiralic quality to it. One negative thought leads to another and then another until I’ve gone ten steps down the rabbit hole with my anxiety in full force.

In that moment I notice the noise, but look for the little bit of quiet underneath.  That is where intuition waits to be tapped into and called forth.  

I’m very excited to announce that I’m bringing my High Priestess Tarot Embodiment workshop to the internet later this Wednesday, February 5th.  This is a workshop I have only offered live in person and after a lot of requests for it, I’ve decided to make it available as an online course.  

This course is a combination of tarot discussion, yoga, guided meditation and journaling.  The purpose of The High Priestess Embodiment Course is to put you more in touch with your own intuition, to build your trust in yourself over time, and to help you tune in to your inner guidance systems in moments of stress and transition.  It is open to everyone: male, female, or non-binary. The High Priestess is not about masculine or feminine. It’s about our ability to connect to deep inner knowing and learn to trust ourselves.

If you want to be the first to know about the release, sign up for my email list here.

© Sheila Masterson 2020 All Rights Reserved