Anatomy of the Aura, Setting Intuitive Boundaries, & Embodying the Hierophant with Eliza Swann

On episode 21 of Living Tarot, I interview Eliza Swann. Eliza Swann is an interdisciplinary artist, intuitive, writer, educator, and community organizer based in Los Angeles and New York. Eliza received a BA in Painting from the San Francisco Art Institute, and an MFA from Central St. Martins in London. She has trained in hypnotherapy at the Isis Centre in England. Additionally, she has trained with a number of teachers in energy healing, Western Mystery traditions, Vedic cosmology and ancestral healing. Eliza has guest lectured at UCLA, the Hammer Museum, the San Francisco Art Institute, Central St Martins, Cal Arts, the Dia Museum, the New School and many more venues and is currently a Visiting Professor at Pratt Institute. Her book “The Anatomy of the Aura” was released by St. Martin’s Press in April 2020. Eliza is the founder of The Golden Dome School, a curatorial and educational platform that studies intersections of art, metaphysics and ecology. 

  • We had a great discussion about what it’s really like to see auras and read them in daily life.
  • Eliza talked about the ethics involved in aura reading and how boundaries play an important part not just in managing your energy as a practitioner but in protecting your client from trauma or embarrassment.
  • We discuss the importance of good energy hygiene in your own energy field and your home.
  • We also talk about how you can change your aura based on what you need on a particular day or what kind of energy you would like to approach your day with.
  • Finally we talk about the different ways that intuition shows up and how people can become more aware of their aura and the auras the feel and energy they exchange with the people around them.

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Learn more about Golden Dome School or take classes with Eliza here

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the taro along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition, and live intentionally with the Tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. On today’s episode I speak with Eliza Swann. Eliza is an interdisciplinary artist, intuitive, writer, educator, and community organizer based in Los Angeles and New York. Eliza received a BA in painting from the San Francisco Art Institute, and an MFA from Central Saint Martin’s in London, and has also trained in hypnotherapy at the ice center in England. Additionally, she’s trained with a number of teachers in energy healing, Western mystery traditions, vedic cosmology and ancestral healing. Eliza has guest lectured at UCLA, the hammer Museum, the San Francisco Art Institute, Central Saint Martin’s, Cal art, the DM Museum, the new school and many more venues and is currently a visiting professor at Pratt Institute. Her book Anatomy of the Aura was released by St. Martin’s Press in April 2020. And Eliza is the founder of the Golden Dome School, a curatorial and educational platform that studies intersections of art, metaphysics and ecology. Eliza and I had such a beautiful conversation about all about auras really and about the ways in which people read energy without realizing the ways that it’s important to clear yourself your own energy field, clear your home, and how important it is to practice ethics and boundaries when it comes to intuitive arts. Because it’s ultimately what keeps you safe and from being invasive in other people’s lives. This conversation was really eye opening to me as I was reading Eliza’s book, Auras and Anatomy of the Aura, which I read earlier this year while I was in quarantine, and really, really enjoyed. So we talk all about that and we also talk about how Eliza embodies the Hierophant in the Tarot, and what that means to her, as well as what it means to me since she also reads Tarot. So without further ado, let’s dive right in. 

Okay, so welcome to Living Tarot, Eliza Swann is my guest today. I’m Eliza, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do in the world?

Eliza Swann  3:26  

Yeah, so my name is Eliza Swann. And I’m a visual artist, and educator, and intuitive and the director of the Golden Dome School, which is a mystery school that was founded primarily to serve artists in working with divinatory and sacred arts, and through the Golden Dome Scool I organized performances and publications and classes year round. And they also just had a book out this year called The Anatomy of the Aura. So that’s me in a nutshell.

Sheila M  4:01  

Yeah, so not too busy at all. I think I find that about so many of the people that I’ve interviewed on the podcast is that so many of us who are intuitive are also very, like multi passionate, and can feel a little bit like pulled all over the place sometimes, because there’s so much going on and so much coming through all the time. And I’d love to start by talking about your book, which I read and have all kinds of notes and stuff in and we’d be embarrassed to lend anybody. There’s so much stuff I wrote down in it. And I wish that you had written it like four years ago because four years ago Sheila could have really used to this.

Eliza Swann  4:45  


Sheila M  4:46  

I wanted to start by talking about how, how long you have had this kind of gift of clairvoyance where you really see energy and energy fields and the aura From the introduction, I understand that like, basically, since you were a child, so what? What was that experience like for you when you were young?

Eliza Swann  5:09  

Yeah, I was able to see energy around people around plants around buildings around objects. And it was all visual for me. It’s I could see it. And I think everyone has this, but usually it’s a felt sensation. So most of us have gut responses to people, places, things and objects. Before we can even articulate what it is we feel we get a strong gut sense of, yes, no, weird, uncomfortable, wonderful, lovely. So we all need energy, I think it’s a biological defense strategy, really to be able to pick energy up quite quickly. But I was able to see it from childhood. And also, I could see the dead and also see their energy. And I was lucky in a sense that my parents split up when I was one, one and a half. That was difficult, but because of it, my mom, my brother and I went to live with my aunt, who was a Reiki Master, and a yogini, and an herbalist and a witch back in the 80s. And so she thought it was totally normal and cool that I was talking to people and things that no one else could see in the room. And she thought it was absolutely wonderful to see auras to work with auras. So before that, she would do this ceremony with me where she would rub her hands together asked me which color bubble I wanted to sleep in. And she talked to me about working with auras and colors and what that can do for you just as like a daily kind of practice. So almost like before bed, I would get dressed in a certain aura color. And then she would encourage me to when I got up, pick out which bubble auracolor was gonna wear for the day. 

Sheila M  7:11  

I love that so much. That is so cool. And I I love, I loved that part of the book where you talked about, like picking your aura for the day and how much attention you pay as somebody who is very intuitive of like, oh, today I’m doing a speaking engagement. So I’m going to push my auraway out so that I feel confident and like I’m in control of the space. And then like, I know, I’m going to be in this huge crowd at this concert, I’m going to pull my aura away. And so I’m not picking up on everybody stuff. And I thought it was so interesting, because I think that when you are intuitive, and some of these things come so naturally to you. You can miss out on some of the magic of calling that in and treating it like a ritual and like a part of your intuitive life every day. That’s not just like, Oh, yeah, like, this is what my aura looks like today. Like I can have some buy in to what’s going on, which I think is so powerful. 

Eliza Swann  8:11  

Yeah, I’ve been talking with friends at length, because so many of my friends are in the healing arts influence with midwives and Tarot readers, massage therapists, and all kinds of caregivers are in my circle. And we’ve all been talking about how it’s really difficult for us to remember to take care of ourselves and to implement that into our daily strategy. And what intense burnout we’re all feeling this year in particular, because things have been so hard for so many people. Our workload has doubled and tripled. So yeah, I resonate with that I am guilty of forgetting to take care of my energy.

Sheila M  8:52  

Yeah. And I think I think it’s interesting too, because I think a lot of the stuff that’s out there around auras it’s almost like, well, it’s this color, or it’s like these couple of colors. And that it doesn’t like change at all or that like you’re always like that, that color, which I think is so interesting. And and kind of going along with that. How, you know, how does it show up for you? I guess the good question that I have that I think is one that is similar to what I get about my particular gifts, is do you walk around every day and you’re kind of seeing things around people just kind of vaguely because when you when you do have that type of gift. It’s always kind of there, like you’re saying and especially I guess with something that is very visual, it would be harder I think to ignore because as humans we kind of live with our eyes most of us. And so I can imagine that it could possibly be distracting, but you also talk a lot in the book about boundaries. So how does that show up in daily life? And when you’re interacting with people? And I guess, kind of as a second part of that question with people that you have, like a close personal relationship with vs like a stranger? 

Eliza Swann  10:15  

Yeah, that’s such a good question. And I have so many things I want to say in response to it. The first thing is that I wrote the book because most of the literature that I could find, and most of the teachings that I was given about auras and energy healing and energy reading, relied on claryoyance, so it was all about being able to see energy. And most people are not especially clairvoyant, but they read energy anyway, and they do it all the time. So I wanted to write something where people could recognize what in themselves was sensitive to energy, and auras, and how they perceived and read about auras. They’re not just colors and aura is actually waves of energy surrounding a being. And so that’s often felt right away, it’s absorbed, it’s transmitted before we even have a second to think about it. And I always use the example of riding on an elevator with somebody, without turning to look at them don’t need to be clarvoyant you feel innately whether or not the person next to you angry or agitated, or whether or not, you can kind of turn and give them a smile. And it happens so quickly that you don’t think about it. So I wanted to talk about auras as these living organisms around our body of energy, about how they interrelate about how we transmit energy. And then of course, the flip side of that is that many of the sensitive people who would be drawn to reading a book about auras reading in the first place, are probably people who tend to notice that they absorb energy, notice that they have difficulty with boundaries. And it’s not because in my purview, it’s not because they’re especially absorbent. It’s because they’re noticing that they’re especially absorbent. So any of us that scroll on the internet, or look at the news or talk about the debates are absorbing a type of collective energy, for better for worse, any of us that come into contact with people, even if it’s just via zoom, which is most of us these days, we absorb energy. And so those of you that notice that in yourselves, I congratulate you, because that’s the beginning of recognizing, where you begin and collective energies and ideas begin and where the energies of people close to you begin. So that’s, I think, the first part of my answer. And then I heavily emphasize and focus on ethics and boundaries in the book. Because I was taught from a teenager, I was a member of all these industries, schools, I went to meditation retreats, I had magic teachers, I had Reiki teachers, all kinds of teachers. And none of them taught me about boundaries. And ethics is very weird. So I emphasize that in the book, because I think a lot of people are taught how to kind of open these spaces of connectivity in themselves or honor these spaces of connectivity within themselves. But they’re not taught how to close these spaces. So in my own personal waking, walking around life, and absolutely sensitive to everything, but I decide at the end of the day to clear myself with energy. I decide my walk around how much I want to engage in things. Oftentimes, I have to physically remove myself from situations because there just isn’t an adequate boundary for me. So yes, I emphasize boundaries and disentanglement as what I call it a lot. So disentangle your energy from people project situations, in as much as you can. I mean, we’re all innately enmeshed and interconnected, thankfully, but you can disentangle to a large degree with a lot of intention and very simple practices.

The other thing I wanted to say was that it is not ethical, in my opinion, to as much as you get a sense from people or places or projects or things or situations. It’s not ethical to read the energy of a person, place project or situation and then tell people about it that are not asking you for that information. This is a strong boundary that I emphasize with people. I’ve had my life disrupted many times by psychics, whether they were good or accurate or well meaning or not running up to me, and giving me unsolicited advice or information about myself. It’s really disorienting, and disorienting and destabilizing. So I think, in addition to boundaries, I also think boundaries are part and parcel of ethics. And I think getting consent, when we do intuitive work, or when we look into intuitive work is super important in establishing boundaries. 

Sheila M  15:35  

Yeah, that’s one of the things that I really, really liked about your book, because at every stage, you’re talking about it not just from, from you personally, and your energetic perspective, and the things that you’re taking on or getting attached to, or people who are, like, unintentionally, kind of sucking the life out of you, so to speak. But also, because there is an ethical boundary, that you really shouldn’t be just walking up to somebody, and giving them a reading, because that’s their personal business. And it’s none of yours. And so I think it’s really interesting, because there seems to be this thing that happens that I notice, with friends and stuff of mine, where I kind of think of it as like the, like Long Island Medium effect, which is people see this TV show, and they think that she’s literally just walking up to people in the grocery store and giving them a reading. And really, what’s happening in the background is somebody is like going in saying this thing is happening, can we try this, getting permission doing all these things, and then she’s getting the reading, but it’s edited to look as though it’s just happening. And so people think that we walk around with like, everything on 100% of the time, and that we’re just like, reading everything that’s going on with our friends. And so I’ve had people say to me, like, Oh, I was nervous to be around you, because I was afraid of like what you were gonna say, and I’m like, first of all, it is exhausting. When you are saying like, it’s exhausting to pick up on things in general, and especially like less so now because I’m not out in public as much anymore. But in a different way, with everything online. And with so much happening in the outside world. I don’t want to I don’t want to know people’s business, like I just, I want to I want to be separated from it. And I was taught, luckily, by somebody who was very ethical, and really reiterated how important boundaries are and how it is not just appropriate to go, like, dig around in somebody’s aura, so to speak, you know, and, and to really be picking up on stuff in that way. Because it’s just, it’s private. And and I think like, you know, you can notice something. And I think there are ways where if it’s something that’s like really negative, or that they might be like really depressed or something like that, you can offer the opportunity, but you can’t like force people to share with you. It’s like not right.

Eliza Swann  18:06  

Yes, I agree. I absolutely agree. And I agree to the extent that even when someone pays me for an intuitive session, we outline our intentions, and specifically what we’re going to talk about. And then if I’m seeing or sensing or feeling information that falls outside of the parameters of our agreement, I have to ask if it’s okay to talk to you about this particular thing. Because you’re right, I love that phrase, but the Long Island Medium effect, they think people assume when they get a reading, that it’s just gonna be like a fire hose in your face of all of the information that we’re seeing. If we did things like that, I think we could run the risk of burnout for ourselves, but also the risk of re traumatizing or injuring somebody, we’re bringing things up that we don’t have the capacity to hold space for.

Sheila M  19:00  

Yeah, yeah. And one of the rules that I set really early on, um, because, you know, in the beginning, I didn’t, you know, I had no idea. That’s why I was saying, I wish that this book had existed when I was going through all of this, because I just, I didn’t realize that I could turn things on and off or turn things down, I guess is a better way to describe it. And that I could set boundaries around what I am willing to know and what I’m not willing to know. And that like one of the boundaries that I set early on, that has served me very well is to say that I never want to know something that the person who is sitting with me isn’t comfortable with me knowing so I will know that there’s something there. And even if I’m doing like a mediumship type of reading where I’m talking to a deceased spirit, there may be something private there that I will say they’re telling me that there is something private it’s not for me to know and you are not comfortable with me knowing and that’s okay. But they want to say that they acknowledge like their part in it. Like you don’t, I don’t need to know in order to give a good reading and in order to do that, and I think I think so many people need to hear that because like you’ve said, I’ve had people like volunteer stuff to me that I’m like excuse me, Please mind your own energy. Thank you, you know? Yeah,

Eliza Swann  20:20  

yeah. Yeah, it’s an interesting time because we have so much mediation and information. And it’s so easy to just dm somebody or grab somebody and we forget that there’s real human beings on the other end of our apparatuses. People throw all kinds of things at me where I’m just like, oh, wow, I’m actually not okay, for an hour after reading this thing from a stranger. Yeah, I think boundaries and ethics and an energetic consent and verbal consent has to be reconsidered. All over the place, not just in the healing arts. Yeah. Yeah.

Sheila M  21:04  

I love that. Um, I’m just trying to find this one thing that I thought was so interesting. So one of the things that I thought was really fascinating was you talk about the importance of like, verbally starting and ending sessions and kind of having this kind of programming, to, to turn on and to turn off, which I think is really valuable for a lot of people to know. And even reading it. And even though I knew it was, like, helpful for me to have reiterated and say like, okay, like, remember to come back to this thing each time because you can take for granted and forget or just get busy or, you know, something happens at the last minute, and especially now with technology. Giving Everybody readings like through the internet, it is a completely different experience than having somebody in my like in person space.

Eliza Swann  21:57  

Yeah. And it can be strangely fatiguing, because you think, Oh, I just close my laptop, I’m done. But in fact, you’re still all energetically hooked into that person. So yeah, I have a really specific scripts that I use to open sessions and I do them aloud with my client so that they understand what energy boundaries and parameters and setting. And then at the end of the session, I also do it, I’ll allow my client instruct them to take their energy back to themselves. I take my energy back to myself, I dissolve the space that we created between us, so that when you hang up or you conclude with an intuitive session, you’re not accidentally carrying someone’s, you know, sorrows or joys in your pocket that just aren’t for you. So yeah, I’ve got scripts from everything.

Sheila M  22:49  

Yeah, and it can really creep up I think, too, if you’re not being very intentional in in setting the space, taking it down, putting it back up. So yes, I loved I loved reading about that as well. Um, I also love I just love your phrase. May May I admire you today, like your  introduction to Can I can I read what’s going on here? Which I thought was like, I just love that phrase. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I thought was so interesting is you have a ton of exercises in this book, which I thought were like so helpful. And some of them I’ve done similar things before and some of them were new to me. But one of the things that was very interesting to me is I I am not terribly clairvoyant myself. What’s interesting is, in the moment, I won’t see anything but then when I remember I will so like memory I am but not necessarily in the moment. And I had the experience of working with my teacher. And we came in for classes the one day and she was like, oh, we’re gonna read auras today. And I was like, geez, I was like, This is not, this is not gonna go Well, like I already know. I’m not gonna see anything. She’s like, no, we’re gonna see auras today, it’s gonna be great. And we’re like, yeah, okay, you know, cuz nobody one person in the group that I was in was like, pretty clairvoyant. But everybody else was more either auditory or feeling and, and so we were all kind of like, okay, and I nobody was more shocked than I was when I sat down and could do it and I thought it was so interesting. Because one of the things that she kind of encouraged us to do was in your automatic speaking exercise where you just have to kind of she kind of set the time and said, okay, like, go through this, just say whatever is coming up and and try not to stop talking until like, until I say, and I was like, Oh my god, and it’s so it can be so hard to remove your ego from the process sometimes, and just say, Okay, I’m just I’m gonna be wrong, you know, whatever. And and I think that because I felt like in that moment, it wasn’t going to work. I was more like relaxed about it than other things that I know I can do, where I’ll get like my head will get involved. And then I have a very hard time shutting it down and being like, no just received to see what happens, you know. So I thought that was so interesting. 

Eliza Swann  25:20  

Yeah, I got the line May I admire you today from Pretty in Pink. It’s something that Ducky Dale says to Andy, in the hallway. And when I’m instructing people in intuitive development, I always have them set the intention to just admire the person’s energy. That way, the person getting their energy read is free from receiving unsolicited advice or having flaws pointed out. And then the person offering the reading is free from having to dispense with advice. Or if they see anything troubling in their reading, they just bypass it because it doesn’t fit with the intention. So just a really easy way to learn to give readings because just admiring someone’s energy, you’re not really going to run the risk of accidentally trampling on them or bringing something up that you don’t have the capacity to hold with them. So may I admire you today is a great way if you’re learning Tarot, or aura reading or any kind of even mediumship, you just want to admire what’s going on, or what is interesting or unique about that person. And then your tongue loosens up. And I often encourage people doing intuitive development with me to do that automatic speaking thing where I set a timer, and you just have to talk because it bypasses that thing that you’re describing, where you want to get it right. And you’re not sure and it happens to me still, I’ve been doing this work professionally for 20 years, something like that. But I taught a class the other day and aura reading class. And I did a demo, and I was reading someone’s energy and I saw a graduation cap. And my mind was like, Don’t say that, of course you’re seeing that you’re she’s in the class with you. And you saw a graduation cap last week, like you’re just regurgitating this couldn’t be right. But I just said it anyway. And at the end of the demo, she said that she was going back to college after having taken a long break, and that it meant a lot to her to see the cap because it encouraged her to feel like she could finish this time. So you just never know,

Sheila M  27:30  

it is it’s so funny. And I’ve seen stuff that I’m like I don’t like it’s the hardest thing to suspend that I think because we’re all when we’re in school, I remember growing up inside of our society, we are all treated as if our value is contingent on how well we can do how well we can be smart and how well we can be good at things and how much you can achieve. And so I think there comes this time where you’re trying to achieve at something that you can’t achieve at but you’re like, you just you just have to surrender at some point and just like give up the control because the more you try to be good at it, the worse you’re going to be. And in those moments where you can kind of surrender a little bit that anything is even coming through before that. It’s just like, anxiety thoughts, you know? 

Eliza Swann  28:24  

Yes, yes. I it’s the it’s the strange paradox of intuitive work that you have to be absolutely soft and receptive and wiggly and attentive enough to name what is happening. And I’m not athletic, even remotely. But I’ve heard this from athletes too, that to really perform. They have to not try they have to be in this strange state of readiness without effort. Yeah,

Sheila M  28:55  

yeah. And that’s been for me when readings have come through the most. And I struggled in the beginning with feeling very much like my ego was getting involved not in a way where I was like, I want to be, because I think when when we traditionally think of ego, we think of like, Oh, I want to be like the guru. I want to be the healer. I want to be the person that’s like fixing everyone. But it wasn’t really about that piece. It was more of that I felt such a responsibility to the work that I felt like I had to fix everything or like I had to, I can fix it. Like if I can’t fix this and they haven’t gotten their money where money’s worth, or if I haven’t given them the message that they were expecting to hear from their grandmother or from their mother or from their father, that I’m not doing enough. And I think it’s still when I think about that sometimes like brings up anxiety for me. But once I removed that, from what I was doing, everything was so much easier. Like it just was so much easier. To go in, and it’s not about not caring about about your work or not bringing like your full self there. But it’s about taking that need to control the outcome out of it and to take that like responsibility off of you, which I think is so important.

Eliza Swann  30:14  

Yeah, I love what you just said. And I still go through this agony. But when I transition to having a fixed rate, I used to be a donation based side gig and I switched to being a fixed rate side gig. And I think that intuitives deserve to be paid adequately for that work. It was just a transition that I decided to make, because this work became my full time work. And I had to set a fee. And once I set the fee, I was in agony every time I sat to give a reading, because people would come to me and say, is this person cheating, and I would sit there, and that was not the information I was getting, I was getting information about career, or people would come to me and ask about buying a piece of property. And my intuition just wasn’t getting anything about that. However, there was this whole other discourse that was opening up. And so I really worried all the time that people weren’t getting what they paid for. And it’s just a muscle with practice, you just learned to trust that you’re conveying what needs to be said to the best of your ability and in accordance with your agreement with that person.

Sheila M  31:30  

Yeah. And it is so interesting, because I was having I was having this conversation. So when everything first started happening for me, I went to see a therapist first because I wanted to make sure I wasn’t crazy. And I basically spent, you know, I did what everybody does, where I spent like the first like 45 minutes talking about, like, my relationship and like, bitching about that. And then in the last, like, 10 minutes, I was like, and also this and basically, like dumped everything that was happening, and God bless her, she was like, okay, you know, she was very, like, very understanding and kind of took it all in stride. And I’ve worked with her since but one of the things that she said to me when I was having like a similar conversation like this, the one day is, she was like, you know, I don’t vary my session price based on if somebody has a breakthrough in our session. She’s like, this is also healing work and, and work that really like empowers people, but I’m not, you know, I’m not being like, oh, it wasn’t worth it today, because like they didn’t have this huge breakthrough that they had last week. So let me charge less like the work is it worth less because people she’s like, and I’m certainly not getting paid to tell people what they want to hear, like, that’s not the job at all. And I was like, and not to say that this is the same as therapy. But it was an interesting perspective adjustment for me, because there are so many other service based professions. If you went in to see a lawyer and you got legal advice that you didn’t like, like you would still have to pay for it. If you’re paying for a service, that’s service based business, but it’s there is like this weird thing that I’ve experienced, and like you’re talking about, and so many of my friends in this in this area, talk about where it is like such a challenge to work with that. And there’s such a sense of, like responsibility that we all seem to have where we’re like, I have to do this well, like I have to do a good job.

Eliza Swann  33:29  

Yeah, I was chatting with one of my closest friends who’s a midwife about how our labor is treated. It’s so interesting, because intuition and nurturance and care are not female attributes, but they’ve been feminized. In our culture, they’ve been lumped into being something that women are adept at more than other genders, although we know that’s not true. But she was saying it’s amazing. And midwifery is kind of this feminized profession, and an OB GYN was a typically male profession post capitalistic seizure of the medical industry. Yeah, in the 15th century, another story for another day. But she was like, Wow, my clients come and ask me if I’ve delivered children before, because they want to feel like they have access to me and they would never ask their ob gyn if they had had a child before. He would never ask your dentist if they’d had a root canal before. There are very clear boundaries with people that are perceived to be in these professions that are more masculine. And I have noticed that as well like as a reader, not only are these expectations kind of high that we set on ourselves to be accurate or to deliver some specific end result. But there’s also I find like a lack of boundary that can make this work difficult where you have to hold build the professional life. Right, you certainly wouldn’t demand a refund from your dentist, if you didn’t like what you heard, you certainly wouldn’t assume that you had some friendship or some closeness with your therapist, because there are kind of formalized boundaries there. So we work in this really unique field that has long been feminized, and is in this kind of wild west terrain of labor and labor practices. Where we do have to do a lot of work to kind of mitigate our expectations of ourselves and our clients and what we feel like our relationships are with these people and what we feel we owe them. It’s something I work on every day. 

Sheila M  35:45  

yeah, it is. It’s, it’s really important. One of my actually, one of my favorite quotes from, from your book is in the section about ethics for auras readers. Um, and you say, “make sure you use language that supports people in their process, be aware of using language that would make someone feel broken or damaged. Each person is fully capable of healing themselves, an energy healer or a reader is there to witness assist, and amplify a person’s innate healing, genius and special abilities.” And I love that so much. Because I’ve always felt that way. Like, when I’m talking to people, I never want them to feel like there’s something wrong with them. And I do think that so much of other healing is focused on the problem and what’s wrong with you. So like, in traditional Western medicine, we’re always looking for like, the problem, what’s the problem? What can we fix? What can we fix? And I think with this type of work, there’s so much importance in just acknowledging what is like what is there and offering to them if they would like to participate, if it’s something that, you know, they’re aware of, and just providing that space for them to safely experience? what it is that they really have going on, and to kind of hold a mirror up for, for what that experience has been so that they can see it a little bit more clearly.

Eliza Swann  37:18  

Yeah, I trust implicitly in the healing arts genius of every single client that I work with. It’s in their hands, what happens, what comes through what breakthroughs happen? Yeah, I had, I was going through some relationship difficulty. And a friend of mine said, resist the urge to feel that you are bad at relationships, you’re just having a hard time and this particular one right at this moment, and I thought, Oh, my gosh, she’s right. I was beating myself up and thinking I was just bad at, you know, being romantic with somebody when in fact, no, it was very situation specific. And I recognize that in everyone that I serve, that we’re hardwired to really aggress towards ourselves and to blame ourselves. And to try to find fault with ourselves, I try to mitigate that damage in sessions where I reiterate over and over that you have the capacity to change yourself and these situations.

Sheila M  38:25  

Yeah, I love that. I I really appreciate. Like I said, I really appreciate this book. And I wish that I’d had it when I when I was young, definitely. But also, when I was kind of going through my later life, awakening of everything. And really getting that sense of like authority around boundaries, and also around that ability to change something. So to kind of bring that sense of like embodiment, okay, today, I really want to really want to bring in this like green energy, I feel like I really need to stay like in my heart center. And I need to, I have a tendency to run away from that. And I really need that today. So I really appreciate it. There’s a lot of wisdom in here. I highly recommend this book.

Eliza Swann  39:19  

Yeah, but I really appreciate that. And I I think even for people who are seasoned healers, and I’ve done this work for a long time, even though it’s kind of a start here guide for beginners to auras you know, as it says on the cover, I do think that it’s always good for all of us, even those of us who are experienced to approach things sometimes with a beginner’s mind, because you can get a little disconnected from the client experience as well. And this can remind you a little bit of that and it can also direct your own practice as well. 

Yeah. I also wanted to make sure what the book it was interesting as the publisher approached me and asked me if I had ideas for a book and all the ones I had were kind of weird, you know, nothing was landing right with the editor. And then I gave them a copy of a bunch of ziens. I made, I always handed out scenes when I teach classes, so people have with a written takeaway. And she seized on this theme that I wrote called the anatomy of the order that was about accessing intuition on your own terms, it was about being all body loving, it was about embracing whatever intuitive skills you have not assuming that you should have clairvoyant skills, or else you’re not psychic. And I also really wanted to emphasize that there is no dictionary for symbols or colors that you can use, because colors are actual vibrations that each one of us as an instrument picks up differently. And symbols are alive, they have their own psyche, they have their own awareness, they have something they can tell you directly with regard to what they are and what they represent. So I also wanted to talk about colors and interpretation and symbols in a way that puts that back in people’s hands and doesn’t assume that there’s any dictionary format symbol decoder that’s really going to be of use and so I wanted to emphasize, trust yourself, trust your clients, trust yourself, trust your client, over and over and over again.

Sheila M  41:40  

Hey, there, did you know that I offer virtual tarot readings over zoom? Tarot is for you. If you’re at a crossroads and want to see your current challenge clearly, navigate complex decisions, and plan how to move forward with competence. Sometimes our emotions can get in the way of us seeing a clear path forward. And tarot acts as a neutral bystander that provides information and insight into our blind spots. I work with so many clients on business readings, decision making, in business, and in career working towards promotions, getting insight on how to make the best moves. I also work with a lot of people on relationship readings, getting insight into both interpersonal relationships, and professional relationships. And I do year ahead readings as well. So you can celebrate your business’s birthday by getting some insight on the energy of the year ahead. What projects to focus on what to put on the backburner. These can be really potent and powerful offerings that provide you with a lot of insight to focus your energy for the year ahead. And right now I’m also offering Virtual Tarot parties. We have all experienced zoom fatigue, we’re tired of staring at each other and having drinks over zoom. But tarot parties are a great option to celebrate life’s rites of passage while staying safe and socially distant. If you’re interested, check out the link in the show notes today, or head over to 

Yeah, that’s a big thing that I talk about on the podcast too. And part of the reason why I do interviews with other people is because I don’t want everything to be just from my perspective, you know, I wanted to offer something out there because I did feel very isolated and lonely. And I was very private about everything that was going on for a long time. And I really wanted to create something that other people could have and hear and be like, Oh, yeah, that’s how it works for me, because it’s slightly different. And then not just my perspective, but also all of these different guests who do all different things. And some who are traditionally witchier and some who are more entrepreneurs or business people who talk about how intuition shows up for them. Because I think the other thing is, it’s not just like you were saying, it’s not just I’m a witch. And so I can do this thing, or I’m psychic, and I can do this thing. Like we all have access to intuition. And I wanted people to hear a variety of experiences, so that they would not feel isolated. And they would not feel weird about all of these things that were going on. So I love that you. You give that back because it is so personal. And I had that experience of wanting an instruction guide. Like I was like, Can this come with a manual please? Which I think is how a lot of people feel but it is so personal that all you can really do is give somebody the guideposts and help them try to pull things in a little bit and get a little bit more structure around it. But ultimately, they’re really the ones that have to do the work to figure that out.

Eliza Swann  44:57  

Yeah, it’s I’m thinking about Tarot because that’s, I think what you primarily focus Yeah. And I often struggle with that. I teach critical studies and colleges, I have this sort of nerdy side. And so when I look at the strength card in the Tarot, I can see that it’s representative of the goddess Seville, who would have been well known to the people of the 16th and 15th centuries. But now when we look at a woman opening a lion’s mouth, we don’t see Sabel we see some some representation of strength or force, or some people interpret that as being about the laws of nature. And so when I would teach Tarot, I would always toggle between, well, here’s the actual historic basis for this car. But what do you see and feel in it? What how can we make this new? How is this alive for you right now. And so sometimes I have to actually resist the urge to be the know it  all, or the researcher, and really just honestly, flex the muscle of trust. It’s not taught to us to do that. It’s up to us to present as the authority so yes, and

Sheila M  46:18  

Especially when you’re in a teaching role as well, which I think is so interesting, and I do, I do Tarot, I also do Reiki and energy work and mediumship. But you know how it is everything kind of blends together a little bit sometimes, depending what we’re doing, um, and again, with boundaries. But one of the things that I think is so interesting is, I teach tarot and I have a course where I teach Taro. And so we go through everything. And, you know, I talk about what the cards mean to me. But I had this realization when I was teaching it for the first time, where people don’t feel like they have the authority to create their own definition for the card. So they’ll hear what I say. But to them, it does not look like that it looks like this other thing, like you’re saying, and to give enough of a parameter for them to say, Okay, this is my starting point. But every time this card comes up, it’s in this type of situation. So I think to me, it means this. And I’ve seen where people feel the impulse, like, Oh, no, like, if you read for another reader, they’ll say, Oh, no, that card is like this to me. And I’m like, Yes, but I’m the reader. And I’m doing the reading. So like, right, that if you want, but you’re really selling yourself short, because if the card is showing up this way, for me, that is a reading for me to give you it’s not a reading for you to interpret, because the same message is going to come through differently to you. Because it is intuitive. 

Eliza Swann  47:54  

Absolutely. Yeah. I really encourage everybody to come up with their own working, changing, evolving living organism have a simple dictionary, no matter what kind of work you do.

Sheila M  48:07  

Yes, yeah. And that was one of the things that was happening for me early on, because I I wasn’t initially drawn to Tarot. And I have always been able to read people since I was young. And a different than you because I couldn’t. I wasn’t getting a lot of visual things. But I hear a lot. And so when I was young, I would say, you’ll love this too, because you’ll know what I mean. But I would say that I was laying in bed at night, and I was listening to the sound of the air to hear who was going to come upstairs next. And I wasn’t actually listening to sound I was listening to energy. But even when I was that young, I was so aware of it. And I could tell who it was. Or I could walk into the house and tell somebody else was there because I could just like hear it. It’s an even in how I teach and how I described things people are like, we hear because like I primarily Hear, hear see things which is hard to describe to people unless they experience it. And I didn’t even realize even though I would say I was listening to the air. I didn’t even realize that that was weird or not weird. It’s not the right word, but not typical, I guess, until I was thirty So I was like, you know, 30 years of my life where I thought everything I was hearing was normal. And I’m like, Oh no, it is really loud sometimes and I can turn that down.

Eliza Swann  49:30  

Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, ears. The inner ear is such a special and strange sense to describe. And I think it arrives for each of us differently because I also hear things but it’s not like hearing it’s almost like like a voice coming out of the bottom of the well inside of the center of my skull. It’s like not even. It’s not like the listening Exactly. Aristotle more than 2000 years ago, wrote a book book where he describes human beings as having five senses connected to the five sensory organs that he understood or could see. So it’s the eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth, tongue, and the skin for feeling. And we now know that we have many more than five senses even. But for whatever reason, I was taught that we had five as a child. And even when you describe intuitive senses, like the inner ear, or the inner eye, or a gut sense, or a feelings, and we just don’t have very good language for the five senses, let alone the subtle aspects of the five senses, let alone the senses that stray outside of those five categories. We have so many we have kinesthetic senses, we have temperature senses, we have orientation senses that we’re not even taught how to describe.

Sheila M  50:52  

Yeah, and I think that was one of the things that I struggled with so much, because I was like, it is like I’m hearing. I loved your description that was so perfect. But it it comes into my brain as if I’m hearing it, but I’m not actually hearing something, you know, sometimes I’ll get a little like ring in the ear, which is like my like, Hello, you know, like, pay attention. Or I think a lot of the time, I know that there’s a spirit around or there’s something going on, because there is like a lack of sound in one place is how I would describe it. It’s almost like I’m not hearing here. And so therefore, like, I know that somebody is there, but like, it’s come across to me, the more that because I was really taught to develop all of these skills. And like I said, I, I’ve noticed now how they show up in different ways. And because of that, like I would say that that happens. And it’s happened at like such like random times. Like I always say there’s always funny stories for people who are very intuitive about when certain spirits and stuff will show up. And so the first time that I ever had like a very like clairvoyant experience, I was coming home from dinner with my partner. And we were in a fight about something. And and so we were kind of like, like at each other a little bit. And we come into the apartment, and I turn on the lights in the living room, and I walk in and I was like, something is here, and I can see it sort of it was almost like, have you seen Harry Potter? 

Eliza Swann  52:31  

Yes. I have.

Sheila M  52:32  

When you put on the invisibility cloak and Harry Potter, and you’re like, I can’t see anything, but something is not right about the way that right there looks, you know, like it was a very, like, humany type of shape. And I was like, for God’s sake. Not right now. Like, times, like, times, I’ll be like sitting in meditation or like doing something where I’m like, actually ready to listen. And then it’s always like, at like, a random time that they’re like, Oh, just one second,

Eliza Swann  53:02  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So think about like not exerting effort when your senses kind of barely open. But I also found that I will be obsessing about a topic or a subject or reading about it. And then a spirit vision that’s kind of connected to that shows up. So I find that these things communicate with us a little bit on a delay, like we’re picking up that energy, and we’re recognizing that it’s there. And as we walked towards it, it somehow makes itself apparent to us with our physical senses in some way. But I when I was hearing that story, it’s almost wondering if you weren’t agitated anticipating that that spirit was in your home and if it wasn’t contributing to, you know, some, some bickering because that happens to me a lot.

Sheila M  53:54  

Yeah. And I was like, cuz I think I am more aware, like you said, I feel like I’m more aware if I’m like, in danger, which I think is like I’m saying in danger kind of broadly, but like if it is something that is not in a safe or a friendly vibration, I guess is the best way to say it, and be more aware of it. So like people say all the time, so I I’ve gone with a lot of friends when they’re looking at houses. Because they’ll be like, you know, what do you think and I can usually like again, because I walk in and I can kind of like hear everything at once. I can usually kind of tell what’s going on so they’ll be like, you know how it’s okay. And also like you would probably sense it like if something really bad was there you would have a feeling for it like everybody does. They just write it off. And the same like you described if the energy in a room shifts like I always describe it as a woman as when you can see That the ratio in the room has shifted to mostly men or all men, most women are like on like a heightened, and they don’t even realize but they’re like not safe, like something that’s not safe right now and they don’t, again, it will take like a second to realize why they’re agitated. And then they’ll be like, okay, but that’s interesting that you’re saying that because like I said, I hardly ever see see things.

Eliza Swann  55:24  

On this note, I’m so glad you’re bringing this up, folks to really put a lot of effort on clearing their spaces. Yes. Energetically, ritually with the words however you want to do it. There’s a I have techniques in the book about clearing your house. There’s also a book by Khi Armand called clearing spaces. Please, everyone clear your space, it’s been amazing to even going to work with people on zoom, and look at their room through the zoom and just think, oh, my goodness, you’ve all got stagnant energy, this clumped in your living space, because you’re not leaving it as much as you usually do. Or there’s a lot of emotion concentrated in it, because things are so intense right now. Yes.

Sheila M  56:16  

Yeah, I know. And, and that’s one of the things that I do say to people, too, is what I am much more likely to find when I walk around the house is that there is some stagnant other people’s energy. So when we say whenever you go into a space, you should really like you’re moving, you should really come in and clear the space and set it for you. However you like to do that, whether you like to burn something or spray something, or use energy work or intention, or poetry or bells, whatever it is, you have to be really specific about clearing that out, because you want it to be yours. And you will start to notice things like I had a friend and and when I went to her house, I went into the one closet, and I was like, Oh, it’s just gotten like a little bit of a headache. I was like, there’s just like some conflict. Like it’s it’s people conflict, it’s not a spirit, it’s nothing like that. It’s just like some, like some sort of fight or something happened here. And it’s still like kind of hanging there. So like, I think people don’t realize how much they can kind of pollute up the space and stuff. And I, my, my partner is very, very good natured about when I’m when I’m doing it and kind of walking through the house and doing different things. But I will like try to clear out after like, if we’ve had an argument or something like that. And I try to clear that out too. Because I think it’s just good energy maintenance for everybody, you know, you don’t have to be witchy, to think about clearing your space, because the more that you can make it your own personal, the better your work is going to be, the more clear you’re going to feel, the less you’re going to be influenced by old fights and Old Energy and stuff that’s kind of stuck in your space, because then you’re just kind of sitting in a soup of that all the time.

Eliza Swann  58:06  

Yeah. And as you say, it doesn’t have to be necessarily witchy or mysterious. All of our great great, great great grand relatives and sisters would use cleaning as an opportunity to get stuck and stagnant energy out of the house, you just sweep in a circle, and then sweep out the front door when you’re done so that not only does the debris move out, but any energy they don’t want in there can move. If you clean and just kind of set intentions as you’re cleaning or straightening your space to kind of clear the energy and reset the energy. We can we use a chime or a bell or a sound or a fragrance of spritz of spray. It can be very, very simple. But please clean out your living spaces.

Sheila M  58:56  

Yes, it is really interesting. It’s such a it’s such a good reminder to people, especially right now I think it’s really important. Mm hmm. Um, so I did want to talk a little bit about everything that is going on in your life today. So obviously, you have this whole experience you wrote this book? What does your kind of intuitive life look like today? Or how do you use it? How do you use your intuition in your daily life? And which rituals? Do you kind of go back to over and over? 

Eliza Swann  59:30  

Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, I find myself um, my intuitive practice. I see clients one on one. And I offer readings and then I also see clients one on one to offer teaching. And I also run the Golden Dome School could teach intuitive development with that platform. And then I’m also teaching critical studies which requires quite a bit of intuition actually to figure out how to do Teach literature you have to be a medium of sorts, I think, although I can’t say that out loud in an academic space. But yeah, my days are filled to the brim with client work and teaching work. With very, very little time off right now it’s a particularly busy time. So one thing that super significant for me in terms of retaining balance, and energetic clarity is total silence in the morning. So no scrolling, no phone, no talking to my partner, no talking to make cat, no talking to my plants, I just go out front, I’m lucky enough to have a little outdoor space, I go up front, and I sit in this space, and everyone in my household knows you don’t go over there when I’m sitting in this space. And I just sit in silence for many, many, many moments at the beginning of the day, to reset myself because there’s so many voices coming in. Even for those of us without these kind of busy speaking, involved practices. Scrolling is inviting a bunch of voices into your head. And so I think it’s really special and important and simple just to start the day with 10 minutes of silence, if it’s possible for you. You can also end the day like that if that’s an easier thing to accomplish. And then, at the end of the day, in terms of ritual maintenance, showering is a big deal for me, I do it at the end of most days, especially if I’m doing client work. And you salt these Lemon I use rosemary, I make my own scrubs. This to me scrubs off a lot of unwanted energy. I do a lot of intention, saying but allowing the water to rain, anything off that I carry with me into bed. Nature is a biggie. So as often as I can I get out to nature. And I actually prefer to do that alone, because so much of my work is communal and collaborative. I like to balance that equally, if possible. With alone time. That’s a way that I can reset myself. But these days are busy days in terms of working that psychic muscle.

Sheila M  1:02:18  

Yeah, that’s so beautiful. I think silence is important and hard to find. And in this lifetime, anyway. Yeah.

Eliza Swann  1:02:29  

Yeah, I think people aren’t recognizing nearly enough how stressful it is to have other people’s thoughts, voices, emotions, experiences and expectations running through your head. And how many more of those you have if you are a social media person or an internet person? It’s just it’s a huge influx of input from other people. That can be really decentering. 

Sheila M  1:02:58  

Yes, yeah. Oh, my gosh, I loved what you said, I want to go back to that to what you said about doing your like academic teaching work. And I do think that often when people think about intuition, they just kind of think about that, like clairaudience, clairvoyance that like kind of witchy spiritual stuff. But there are so many people, great inventors, and scientists who absolutely have used intuition to invent things and create these things. Because again, you’re pulling something down from nowhere, somehow that idea is coming in. And you’re saying, Hey, I think you know, I was reading about the discovery of electromagnetic fields. They’re invisible, like, there was no way to prove them until there was you know, and everybody thought that he was crazy when he was trying to prove this thing because it was weird to them. And also, like, that’s how all of these things are created is, is through this intuition. And I think it’s so interesting, because I am the oldest of four siblings, and we all have something a little bit different. And I would say nobody is exactly like me for sure. But like, my youngest sister is like a brilliant mathematician. She majored in math, like just, I mean, it just is so easy and and she can see it the way that I can see these other things, you know, and, and I look at it and I’m like, Well, I mean, I was never bad at math, but I’m definitely not good at math like that, you know, um, and I do think it’s very interesting. I think even among families how you can see it sort it’s sort of play out like that, which is fascinating. 

Eliza Swann  1:04:48  

Yeah, I it’s an interesting role to hold to teach, researched based critical theory in academic institution where everything has to be proven and cited and peer reviewed. And I think these are really important skills. And I think that we should have these research capacities and these capacities to use the intellect. But in that space, absolutely a no-no, to talk about intuition, I’m teaching a class next semester about alchemy at an institution. And the teacher is kept joking and being like, don’t start a cult, you know, don’t make this, witchy and I  was like, Whoa, okay. But, so much of our science, so much of what we assume is empirical, actually came to us from deep, mystic contemplation. There’s a mystic by the name of Giordano Bruno. And in his era, which would have been a 15th century, they didn’t distinguish between mysticism and science, they were the same. It was if you had a question about the real works, or the mechanics of the universe, you also had spiritual questions, they weren’t considered different. And he was mystic. And he looked up at the stars one night, and he thought, Oh, my gosh, the sun in the sky during the day is a star, which we now take for granted. And you can see that he was speaking directly to the stars or had an experience of connection to the sky that gave him this flash of insight. And of course, he was burned at the stake for even daring to suggest the sun would be a star. Because if they’re if the stars are other suns, and that means there are other worlds and the earth isn’t at the center of everything. And it was just too disruptive to how people wanted to see things. But the foundation of what we understand in terms of philosophy and mathematics and science came from alchemists spiritual people.

Sheila M  1:06:51  

Yeah. And I think I think it’s so fascinating, because people are quick to write some of it off now as silly or, you know, astrology or whatever, like and make jokes about it. But I think, take for granted how much that work has given us the world that we have today with, with science and with, especially now, you know, with the medical community and needing to, and there’s something to that to my, my middle sister is a nurse. And they they have a sense that, you know, something isn’t right. And they there’s nothing statistically wrong, nothing coming up as wrong, but they will know that something is up and in particular, with Coronavirus and some of the things that were going on, you know, they were saying from the beginning, like something is different. It’s not just the respiratory thing, like the way that the people are crashing, all of a sudden, it’s not, this is not normal, like something is going on. And they had a sense of it. And people were like, No, no, no, no, no. And then as time has gone on, they’ve been like, hmm, yes, that does seem to be happening. And I do think it’s very interesting, because everything starts from this place of Oh, no, that’s silly. You know, and I think more and more of these things are, I think, going to be accepted in some of these traditional academic places. Because I also think that they run off of patriarchal and white supremacist ideas that are now shifting as a society. And I think, I think it’s going to be interesting to see what the next couple years are like because of that, because there are more fringe type of classes that universities and stuff now I have a friend who is a death doula and teaches a class on death and dying at a local state school, you know, and, and all of her colleagues were like, that’s so weird. You’re not going to get anyone to sign up for that. And sure enough, it’s full every semester, she has to add people like, yeah, it’s always packed. And I think there’s such a desire for another level of understanding. So I love that you’re providing that in a lot of different settings and even into academia a little bit.

Eliza Swann  1:09:12  

Yeah, I think that we’re going to see much greater progress as a species when we begin to become friends with the intellect and intuition and see them as two tools that are equally useful. And obviously, once we stop making everything, with a profit in mind, I think we’ll go very far in terms of what both energetic and intuitive healing arts can offer to empirical medical science and vice versa. I think it’s long past due for us to be friends. 

Sheila M  1:09:52  

Yeah, absolutely. So I do want to talk about what tarot card I really see you bodying. And it was funny because I kind of felt this way after reading the book. And then after our conversation even more so. So I actually picked the Hierophant

Eliza Swann  1:10:09  


Sheila M  1:10:10  

such a good card. I love this card so much. And I think it gets a bad rap. But what I think is so interesting is I see this so much in all of my friends and people I interview, who talk about providing information and education, but giving it to the people. So giving it back to the student, to create their own wisdom, and to really like turn inward with that understanding and with healthy boundaries and with you know, less fear around it. But to really bring those lessons and make them personal and discover their own practice and their own sense of things.

Eliza Swann  1:10:53  

Yes, oh my gosh, I love this card. I’m blown away that you chose it. In fact, a friend is designing a deck and asked me to contribute to a card and asked me to pick and I was like, please let me do The Hierophant. And it’s it’s a really misunderstood card, for good reason. Classically, it has the pope on it. But a friend of mine who’s a medieval historian said that the pope being included in the deck was actually kind of a joke. It was hubris, because most of the imagery in the deck comes from pagan symbolism. And so adding the pope in was kind of like a ribbing of the Pope and his authority in the Pope’s authorities so different from what a real mystic would be like, right? the Pope’s authority is absolute, it’s enforced by violence. It’s church, state, profit, money, real estate and connection to God belongs just to me. And I think the reclamation of that of that person or that archetype, or that energy has been so significant for us in the last few years and I love what the Hierophant especially being number five, if he subscribed to the Tarot having numerological significance, some people don’t. But number five is revolutionary. It’s the bridge between zero creation, one creation and 10 ending. It’s the bridge between heaven and earth. It’s the bridge between chaos and order. It’s the bridge between polarities. And in that sense, it’s a radical, revolutionary, non binary, churning, breaking things open radical rebellious is card if you let it be. And I think it was designed to be actually Yeah,

Sheila M  1:12:54  

I love that I’ve never heard back description of like, the historical significance, which I think so interesting. But whenever I read kind of like the book definition of the card, I was like, that’s not it, you know? Like, that’s not right. Um, and I think, to me, that makes so much more sense. And that’s how I really, you either you either think that you’re the Hierophant or you are the Hierophant you know, or you think that you’re the wise leader who’s teaching everybody or you think that you are not, and therefore you are the servant leader, who is kind of guiding and and walking beside your students and saying, this has been my experience, what is your experience, like, and really offering them the ability to participate in their own education, and to see themselves as the teacher ultimately, 

Eliza Swann  1:13:44  

Yeah, I love this card so much, I could talk about it for so long. Um, I mean, the Hierophant came from being a 19th century scholar who renamed the pope because he didn’t want it to be called the Pope. He wanted to come liberate that symbol or that person, and he named it the Hierophant, which is a Greek word, because he was imagining that the eleusinian mysteries were somehow part of this card, he misunderstood the history of Tarot. But eleusinian and mysteries are all about diammonium losing your mind, hallucinatory naked dancing with wine. And so this figure is at the center of that kind of unraveling, or this rebellion or this chaos is ecstasy. That’s just about untameable. So I love it.

Sheila M  1:14:39  

Yeah. Yeah. And I just think it’s such a beautiful, it’s such a beautiful card to embody with teaching as well, even as the teacher in quotes, because I feel like I’ve learned so much more about my Tarot practice. I also teach yoga and I teach yoga teachers. And I’ve learned so much more about, about yoga and about the practice from teaching teachers and from listening to them. Because when you have that kind of experience, you get to see what you’re saying reflected back and you’re like, oh, wait a second. You’re right. You know, like, I’m learning this lesson from you as well, which I think is, at times even more valuable. You know, I think like, one of the things I like about yoga is like, the essence of always being a student, like you’re, you’re always a student, and you’re always in practice, you know, you’re never in this perfect, you know, cover of yoga journal. Like, you’re always, there’s always something for you to work on, and to continue to evolve. And to, you know, when it’s not your body, it’s your mind, you know, and your breath and all of that. And I think it’s so interesting, because with this card, there’s so much wisdom in listening to the students and in, in hearing what feedback is coming in as well.

Eliza Swann  1:16:03  

Yeah, I had this really eccentric teacher for about 10 years. I got a reading from her when I was in. I don’t even know if I was 20 yet. And she looked at me and was like, Oh, my God, do you need training? This is you’re a mess I was I was a mess, I was like, overwhelmed as having lots of visions as big trouble. Just kind of remaining in balance as a human being. And she would have me meet her at Starbucks, I grew up in Manhattan, I needed the Starbucks in the middle of  Manhattan to change smoke cigarettes. And the first thing she would say to me, was, well, chain smoking outside of Starbucks and look at me, in for 10-15 minutes refused to say anything that showed me nuts as a young person who’s coming to this person for teaching, to be asked to take up the space or to take charge of the space. And it was many years later that I realized what she was doing. She was making me put my voice in the space she was making me own The space and declare this base and not wait for her to do that every time. So yeah, I think about her I think about the Hierophant to just like the strange, chain smoking intense woman just watching me and waiting for me to declare myself and refusing to do it herself. Which is cool. So cool teaching.

Sheila M  1:17:29  

Yeah. And I I had like a similar experience with so what really kind of reloc everything and my life was when I went through Reiki to training. And I was going back and talking to my teacher. And I was like, Oh, this, this and this are happening. And he knew from the beginning what was going on, but he wasn’t going to like, solve it for me. And quite frankly, if he had just been like, Oh, you have some mediumship abilities, and like this might happen, I probably be like, No, thank you.That’s  Ridiculous, how dare you, you know, I would not have been ready to hear it. And then like after two months of going back and forth with him, and you know, he was still guiding me and like offering, you know, listening to what I had to say, and then offering some ideas. But I finally came back like two months later. And I was like, I think I’m a medium. And I think this is what’s happening. And I think I need to learn this. And he was like, Yeah, I think so too. And I was like, why don’t you just tell me? He was like well,  I don’t really think you were ready to hear it yet. And I was like, and at the time, I was like annoyed. Although, upon reflection, I realized how much like, I couldn’t have had somebody sit down and say to me, Hey, listen, what you just described is this. And now you have to like and, and he the whole time very much left it open and said, you know, ultimately, what you decide to do is up to you. You don’t have to accept this, it doesn’t just because you have this doesn’t mean you have to use it. And you can you can permission yourself to do whatever you want. I think that it may keep presenting itself. So you know, just something to be prepared for. Um, and also, you know, you can say No, thank you. Like, it’s totally up to you. And I was in a completely different headspace when I came back to that experience. You know,

Eliza Swann  1:19:30  

yeah, what a great teacher and that is so Hierophant as well to let people kind of mill through their process and arrive at things to a degree in in a way that’s comfortable for them. 

Sheila M  1:19:43  

Yeah, yeah. So, um, I will share everything in the show notes for this episode in terms of how to get in touch with you, but how can people work with you now? What’s the best way to get in touch With you, how can they follow what you’re working on? 

Eliza Swann  1:20:02  

Yeah, thank you for asking. People can book readings with me. And that can be found at Elizaswann.asme link to that. That’s my scheduling app. And through there, you can read about the different services that I offer. And we can also do one on one intuitive development. If people want to join classes that I teach, and colleagues of mine teach, they can visit And that’ll have art exhibitions and classes and intensives that are happening through the Golden Dome School, which I direct and do a lot of the teaching through. And then best way to contact me is 

Sheila M  1:20:50  

And obviously also, you can find Eliza’s book Anatomy of the Aura, which is super helpful in terms of boundaries, clearing your space, clearing yourself, I think, for everyone, not just people who would identify as traditionally intuitive but really important work. And I highly recommend it was very easy to read. So I think it’s not always the case with some of these books where like, it can be very heavy and, like academic sometimes where I’m like, oh, gosh, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to understand all of this. But it’s very easy to understand and very practical in the exercises that you describe and the uses for it. So I highly recommend that as well. And I will link everything up in the show notes. Um, but thank you so much for taking this time. 

Eliza Swann  1:21:49  

This was such a wonderful experience. I so appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Sheila M  1:21:54  

Yeah, maybe we’ll have you back when you’re working on your next book or your next project. 

Eliza Swann  1:21:59  

Yes, I am working on a project about the dead. So we’ll talk about medium ships.

Sheila M  1:22:06  

Absolutely. That sounds like I have to have you back then that would be great. All right. Thank you, Eliza.

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSagespirit and let me know what you learned,  what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Ethics and Energetic Boundaries for Intuitives

On episode 20 of Living Tarot, I break down the importance of having ethics in your intuitive practice. I go into great detail on setting up rules and boundaries with the type of work you want to do both with energetic boundaries with the spirit world and with clients.

  • I talk about the importance of clearing yourself and your energy on a daily basis and grounding.
  • I discuss being an ethical reader and what it means to have healthy boundaries.
  • I give specific instructions on how to set those boundaries and how to hold them in your space so that you and clients feel safe.
  • Ethical boundaries are at the core of having a trauma-informed practice.
  • I talk about breaking down unhealthy energetic exchanges with in partnerships and family system

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of practical Tarot for everyday intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the taro along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing. Empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot.

Hey there a tarot friend, I wanted to ask you for a quick favor. I’ve been working very hard behind the scenes to get living Terrill out there in front of as many people as possible, but I can’t do it without your help. So for the month of November 2020, I am running a special contest. And the prize will be a career ahead tarot reading, which is a reading of the full view of the year ahead in your business or career. So if you would like to enter, head on over to Apple podcasts, and review Living Tarot, preferably with a five star review, and leave a comment about what you learned from the podcast, your favorite episode, or even questions that you might have, that you’d like me to answer on upcoming episodes, and then share a screenshot of that review over on Instagram and tag me at Star Sage spirit. And if you don’t have Instagram, you can always send a screenshot to my email.I’ll include more info about how to enter this contest over on Instagram, and in the show notes for today’s episode.

Hello fellow seekers and welcome back to Living Tarot. On today’s episode, I’m going to talk about something that’s pretty important as intuitive people. And that is boundaries. So my theme for November on the podcast really is all around boundaries, including some of the guests that I have coming in, and also my own episodes, but in particular today,

I want to focus on boundaries and ethics when it comes to being an intuitive person and living an intuitive life, and what that really means. And we’re really talking about bridging the gap between October where we were very focused on intuition into November where we’re focusing on boundaries. So kind of a combination of intuition, and ethics and boundaries in today’s episode, which might not sound super fun. But we’re also going to talk about how to protect yourself and your own energy. Because when we have good boundaries, it’s not just about not being in somebody else’s business. It’s also about protecting your own energy, clearing your own energy field, being kind to yourself. 

So to start out, when it comes to being an intuitive person, whether you consider yourself to be highly intuitive, sensitive person, an empath, we tend to exchange energy with people on a daily basis without necessarily realizing it. Sometimes it’s obvious sometimes we, you know, we have that conversation on the phone with a friend. And when we get off, we just feel exhausted, like, completely drained. Like we, we were supporting this person supporting this person supporting this person. And now we just feel completely spent. Or we might feel like, perhaps you talk to a friend who’s going through something really emotional and upsetting, and you get off the phone with them and you feel upset and emotional, as if you’ve taken that on. And usually what happens in that situation is that you’ve acted as an energetic kind of sounding board for that person. And they’ve had the ability to and it’s not malicious, it’s just habitual. And especially in some of our interpersonal relationships, we will see this. But what really happens is that this person has kind of dumped their energy, their worries, their anxieties onto us, and we’ve taken them on and so afterwards, our friend might feel better, because they’ve kind of dumped that load on someone else. But we might feel worse. And so that is important to notice, like when things like that are going on, if you find yourself feeling that way, in interpersonal relationships where this can come up a lot, particularly within family systems, so either with parents, or with a spouse or partner, sometimes even with children, so we might find ourselves in this sort of energetic exchange where and you’ll see it in behaviors as well. So for example, a good example that a lot of people can relate to is, if you are traditionally the one that is doing a lot of cleaning and, and labor around the house, you might notice that other people will leave, you know, dirty dishes or dirty clothes or towels on the floor, or whatever it is, and have the expectation that you will clean that up, because it is labor that you have taken on. And so it creates this kind of weird energetic exchange where we are constantly like, putting too much energy out there. And the other people are passing that, that, that responsibility off to us, because they’re so used to the way that that exchange goes on. And this isn’t to say, don’t clean your house. That’s not what I’m saying.

But sometimes we do need to set boundaries there, if you put the dishes in the dishwasher, I will make sure everything gets washed, but otherwise, I’m not going to you’re gonna have to clean that up. And so, we will see this come up a little bit in those relationships. And also, you will notice it come up. You know, if you are a person that is particularly empathic, you might have strangers opening up to you about deeply personal things. So maybe you’re at the grocery store, and you’re in line, and somebody is like talking to you about their life, you know, and I’m like, deeply personal things, or I’ve had the experience of like, being in an elevator with someone and then just kind of like, completely opening up about like a deeply personal situation that I would never speak to a stranger about. So you might find yourself in situations like that. And that’s an exchange, also, because people can feel something in your energy where they can feel that you’re open to that kind of exchange. And it’s not like you’re not saying that you’re asking for it or anything, it’s just that people recognize something in your energy field that is more receptive. And so therefore, they meet that receptivity with, like a giving, unfortunately, is often in giving what they do not want to deal with, or what is unpleasant or uncomfortable to deal with. So that’s really where where this all kind of starts. It’s all an exchange. And it’s this isn’t about this isn’t to, to judge you or to make you feel guilt, or like you’re doing something wrong. It’s really just about noticing. And the reason I’m bringing up these specific examples is to give you ideas of how this might be showing up in your life, or how to notice if this is happening to you. So these boundaries are important for us, not just so that our energy is clear, and so that we aren’t getting worn out. But they’re also important because it’s about respecting other people’s privacy. And this is really important. Like, I can’t even It is hard to, to even fathom how important this is. And it might not seem that way. I think a lot of people when they think about being intuitive, or, you know, I’ve had people say things to me, about my gifts that kind of come from a misunderstanding of how they work, that you know, they would, they would be checking in, you know, on all these different people in their lives to see how they really feel. And it’s not, it’s not about that it’s not really appropriate to go to go digging around in someone else’s energy. And it is important to have strong boundaries around that. Because it’s not your business and privacy is really important. And ethics in intuition is really important. And just because you can do something doesn’t mean that you should do something. So just because you can send something or kind of tap into somebody doesn’t mean that you should and it doesn’t mean that it’s appropriate to and if you’re having trouble figuring out if it’s an appropriate thing to do think about if the shoe was on the So if your roles were reversed, how would you feel about that person tapping into you and your energy and kind of taking an intuitive peek at you. And if you find right away that you had a very visceral response to that, then stop doing that. 

So along with that, it is important. You might be sitting there and saying, Well, I’m not doing this on purpose. Like, I don’t mean to pick this stuff up, how can I stop picking this stuff up from other people? What is going on that I I go through my whole day and and for some of us, who are more sensitive, and are able to work from home now, it’s been a little bit of a comfort. But you might have had the experience in the past of being at work and picking up stuff from coworkers or picking up stuff from clients. And you might think I really don’t want that I really don’t want this, but I don’t know how to stop getting it like how can I? How can I shut this down? How can I stop this in my in its tracks to you, I want to say you are in charge of this, you make the rules. So it’s your responsibility to set up what rules you want in place. And this is important because it is deeply personal to you. Perhaps you want to know certain things in in certain relationships. So maybe with your spouse, you want to know a little bit more than you would with, say a stranger on the subway with you. So it’s okay to set up rules around that. And I’ll give some examples of that in a moment. But you ultimately are in charge. So if you’re having that response, where you’re feeling like I don’t know how to control this, I can’t do that. Sheila is telling me to do this, and I don’t feel like I can do it, I don’t feel like she understands I completely understand because in the beginning, when I was going through my kind of spiritual opening, I was completely inundated I was really really overwhelmed. I was having a really hard time at work in in, in a professional environment. Because I I was picking up stuff from people that I knew it wasn’t appropriate for me to know. And I didn’t, I didn’t know how to control it. In fact, I avoided going to one in person meeting because I just I did not have control over it. And I was so nervous about picking up something that wasn’t appropriate that I just joined virtually. And it can be very disruptive, if you are sensitive, if you are going through some sort of either upgrade or change to your connection, it can be extremely overwhelming. So I was doing all of this stuff in the beginning without meaning to. And so that’s why, you know, everything that I talked about on this podcast is really born out of my own experience or the experience of clients of mine or students of mine, who have kind of come through over and over. And I’ve heard some of the similar complaints. And so that’s kind of what I use to formulate a lot of these things. So I had this experience as well, where I was just completely exhausted and terrified, basically, all of the time when I was going through this. So if you want things, if you are picking stuff up that you don’t want to pick up, if you are seeing things you don’t want to see feeling things you don’t want to feel, hearing things you don’t want to hear, you know, there’s so many different ways that our different gifts work. You can set rules, and how I would suggest doing this is sitting down. It doesn’t have to be in like meditation, it could also be going for a walk or something if you connect more deeply in that kind of environment. But wherever you feel safe and secure, so if that’s in bed, if it’s in a nice chair, in your house somewhere, wherever you feel good to then take a moment to sit down to do some breathing. And to call in whatever type of support you need, whether that is loved ones who are in spirit, whether it’s angels guides, if you’re religious, and there’s some sort of deity or you know, religious figure that you would connect with or that you like to work with in those situations. You can call in those spirits of the highest level for your highest good and and try to connect with them to help you set the best rules for yourself. And then think about about situations where something has come up where you felt uncomfortable, how could you make a rule around that situation that would make you feel more comfortable, or that would have you not have to deal with that thing at all. So I’ll give you an example.

I had the experience of complete overwhelm when my mediumship gift gifts started showing up again. And I felt like I was getting tapped by spirits kind of all the time, I would set up my Reiki sessions, and I still felt like I was having a hard time keeping, you know, I tried to protect the room. And I still felt like I was having a hard time keeping spirits of deceased loved ones out. And so I had a conversation with one of my teachers. And she talked to me about setting boundaries in this way. And so I set up a rule, that was, first of all, I only want communication from spirits of people who I know personally or am acquainted with, personally, I don’t want all of the spirits that are out there, because there are tons of them. And it’s too confusing.

So just setting that boundary was enough to make a significant difference in what I was experiencing on a daily basis. And from there, I set other rules too. So for example, no one can be, you know, no spirits can be in my room, when I’m getting ready for bed, like we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna be in the room, my bedroom at night, that’s my own personal time, I don’t want anybody in there. And that is a very strict rule that I enforce. And since setting, it has really not been a problem, and every once in a while, you might find that there’s some sort of intrusion on that boundary, but usually you can reinforce it very quickly again. And I’ve also set up rules like what I call like, the human rules for spirits. So sometimes spirits get, like, very excited, and like, really, you know, I’m around somebody who they want to talk to. And so they might like, really, really be in my face. But I set up human rules where I say, you can’t interrupt me or somebody else while they’re talking. Like you need to wait for your chance to talk. And things like in my, in my home, you can’t just be like lurking around the house, if you would like to talk to me, you have to come to the front door like a person would. And so just setting some of those boundaries helped me to not feel so jumpy, or like I was going to walk around the corner and find the spirit there, you know, it really settled things inside of my house and really handed the power back to me. And that was so important for me. And it is important for you to if you’re an intuitive person. Now, I am giving examples about mediumship. But it doesn’t have to just be that. So for example, in some of the other work I do, so when I do past life healing, initially, I was seeing everything I would kind of see it like almost like watching a little movie in my head. And I had to set some rules around that as well. Because often, especially in a healing environment, the lifetimes that were coming in were a lot of traumatic things, a lot of violence. And so I had to set some rules about what I was seeing and what I didn’t need to see. So you know, I had to remove some of that violence, from my vision. And it doesn’t, in any way affect the healing work that I was doing. And I feel much better not seeing that. And for the most part, I can kind of assume what happened without having to see and bear witness to it. And can still move through that healing without having to have it literally in my face. So you might want to start to set up some rules for yourself. So perhaps, you would like to not pick anything up at work. Or you would only like to pick things up. You know, when you open up to it, or you know, you you can kind of anything goes here and I would encourage you to set that time to go into that space where you feel very comfortable. And to maybe even write those rules down sometimes. For some of us, it’s hard to like, hold a sentence in our mind when we’re, we’re asking for this. So if something comes to you maybe write it down, maybe have a little list of rules.

And then you know you can use that as your touch point for everything that you’re doing. So, if you are at work one day, and you’re somehow picking up on something that you shouldn’t be, you can say, Nope, rule number three, we’re violating rule number three, right? Now, send this back out. And that’s really important because it really does give the power back to you. And it helps you to stop feeling like you are a victim of your own gifts, or you’re a victim of your own power. And really puts you back in the driver’s seat. And what’s also important about this is that you’re being an ethical person in terms of not invading someone else’s space. So if you are going through something deeply personal, and your boss, or your coworker knew about it, because they were kind of digging around in your psychic space in your aura, your energy, whatever you like to call it, how would you feel about that? You know, I really want you to think about that. Because I think sometimes, when we do have something new are happening, we really want to practice it, we really want to exercise it. We’re curious, we want to kind of tap into all these different people, maybe we want to check on exes, you know, there’s all kinds of stuff that can come up. And that’s okay, you know, that’s, that’s a human impulse. But my bet is that you would have plenty of people who you are friendly with who are thoughtful, good friends in your life, who would be willing to let you practice on them. And one of the most important rules that I set up is one that I keep in all sessions with clients, which is that I never want to know something, or hear something or see something that the client is not comfortable with me knowing hearing or seeing. So you, you might be like, what, what does that mean? So Meaning, if I’m doing a mediumship reading for someone, and there is something deeply personal that the person, the spirit that I’m talking to, has experienced or has done wrong to the client that is sitting with me, I don’t want to know something that is too private to that client.

Hey there, I wanted to remind you that this is a great time of year to get a career ahead tarot reading. This reading will give you a full view of the year ahead in your business or career. It’ll enlighten you as to the stories that you’re telling yourself about your work and business. It’s a full look at what feels true, what is true and how to work through doubt and imposter syndrome. We’ll talk about what obstacles you may be coming up against so that you can be prepared to meet them, and how to play to your strengths and where to focus your energy. Your session will be fully collaborative and offer you the opportunity to weigh your options and evaluate different career paths and offers. This reading is designed to empower you to make career choices that offer you the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion. And to consider things you might not have. clients who’ve had one of these sessions with me have been able to analyze job offers aligned new services and products with their value, and things like the timing to roll them out and felt empowered to negotiate five figure salary increases. This is the perfect time of year for this type of reading. And I don’t have a ton of availability around the holidays. So if you are interested, make sure you head on over to the show notes and look into booking a session today. 

So I might still get something about it I might get you know what happens a lot in that situation is the spirit will tell me that there is something that’s private. That is not for me to know but  that they want to take responsibility for or apologize for. And they will say that to me. And without a doubt every single time that has happened, the client has known exactly what I’m talking about. And I tell people that when they come in for a session, I won’t know anything that they aren’t comfortable with. And that applies to Reiki. It applies to Tarot. It’s extremely important to me because when you are setting up an environment in which people are trying to heal and trying to feel comfortable. And this applies to any work, you don’t have to be doing spiritual work because people know when somebody is digging around in their business, even if they’re not totally aware of it, they will be on edge around you. And so I set this up as one of my main intentions with all of the work that I do, because it’s extremely important for me to set up an environment where my clients can come in and be vulnerable without Feeling like something is going to go too far, or go outside of their comfort zone. That’s very important to me, it’s very important to me as a client of other readers as well. So I do really encourage you to respect that. And also, if you are a healer and a reader, we can sometimes and again, I speak from personal experience, have a tendency to want to go above and beyond and try to like fix something or like, fix something for the client, or, you know, tap in and try to like push things around a little bit.

And that is not for you to do it – Who are you to fix something for someone else,?you are holding space for them to have their own experience. And it’s not up to you to solve everything for the person. And when you do that, you’re really doing them a disservice because they aren’t getting the opportunity to, to heal themselves to participate in their own healing process, and to really learn to take responsibility. And something that I have seen, sometimes with other readers, or especially people who are newer to intuitive gifts, is that they can overstep a little bit. And you know, when it happens, maybe you’ve witnessed it, maybe you’ve done it yourself and then felt guilty afterwards. Again, no shame, we all learn from experience, and I am sharing this now. So that if you are doing it, you can stop. If you have done it in the past, you can be like, whoops, I won’t do that. Again. It’s not about judging ourselves, it’s about learning and committing to be better.

So it is really important to not offer a reading to someone who’s not asking for it, to not be digging around in someone’s business that’s not your own. And when you do that kind of stuff, you are really opening yourself up to things that are, you’re opening yourself up in a way that is not totally safe, and can create this sort of like strange attachment to someone else. And can open, you know, gateways for them to, you know, do do some damage to you maybe accidentally, but it can also do damage to to them and to you know, their psyche and their sense of comfort.

So I did want to talk about that. So if you are finding yourself in situations, particularly if you work in an environment where you’re around a lot of people, or maybe it’s kind of a toxic environment, you might benefit from doing just a little bit of energy maintenance. And I would encourage all of us to do this, even if we’re not even if we don’t explicitly find ourselves in that type of environment. When you are going out into either a crowd or if you’re going to work for the day, or whatever it is, I would encourage you if you’re going you know grocery shopping out in public anywhere where you’re going to be kind of exposed to a lot of people to imagine drawing your aura back in towards your body. And on next week’s episode, I’m going to be interviewing Eliza Swann, who wrote a book all about were us called Anatomy of the Aura. And we’ll talk a little bit more about some of these techniques. But I want you to imagine that you could kind of draw all of your energy back in towards your body. So it’s just kind of like a really tight outline around the outside of your body. So it’s very, very close to you. And what that does is that when you go out into these very public places and spaces, you will be able to not be picking up on the emotions, the feelings, the excess energy, the low energy, whatever it is of the people around you. And you will feel hopefully, much less exhausted when you come home. I will say in particular, it’s been important for me during the pandemic to do this when I’m grocery shopping. Because I find that it can be a very tense environment, less so now than at the very beginning of things but I still find it to be a little bit frenetic and very nervous energy in the store. So I will encourage you to try that and to see how it works for you if you notice a difference. And if you are a person who does healing work like myself, I will also do the opposite when I am working with someone so for example, it’s a little bit Different right now with the internet and doing all of my work virtually. But for example, when I was seeing clients in my space in my office, I would kind of push my, my aura out. So imagine my aura kind of filling the whole healing room that we were in, so that I am holding that space for the client to feel very safe and secure. Because I am making sure that the space is stable, that it’s full of my energy that I am not, you know, there’s no kind of like rogue energies wandering around. And that there is a boundary around that space, and that I’ve claimed it as my own. It’s not just out there for anybody to enter. And so doing that, even if you don’t do something that’s like traditionally healing, if you do if you’re a therapist, if you are an esthetician, or do facials, or skincare, or nails or hair, whatever it is, I’m imagining that’s kind of like your space, because the other thing that happens is when you have clients coming into that space, it it lets them know, like who who is in charge right now. And ultimately, you know, the client is in charge of their own healing, but it lets them know that they’re kind of, how can I say it kind of like energetically off the hook, they’re not going to have to make sure that they’re safe in this space, they can just be themselves. And that’s one of the things that I noticed that has really helped with. 

Along with that. If you are a person, especially in any of those fields that I just mentioned, where you might have a lot of clients kind of coming in and out. And even if you’re not, it is extremely, extremely, extremely important right now, especially to be clearing yourself every day. And I’ll say a couple different things about this. So first of all, if you are doom scrolling on social media, if you are watching the news, obsessively worried about the election, I will encourage you to clear your energy every time you finish, so that you’re not carrying it around with you like a little anxiety bundle. So one of the ways that I like to imagine doing this, and I’ve heard a lot of a lot of spiritual teachers, everybody seems to do the same kind of exercise, where it’s almost like you imagine turning on like a showerhead of some sort of either color or like sparkling light that comes down through the crown of your head, and just kind of removes anything that’s not yours or anything that’s not serving you from your body, and then just allows it to dissipate to go back to wherever it came from. And to kind of clear you of any access or anything extra that kind of come in, or that you’ve picked up from anyone else. So that’s really important. And I would say if you do client work like I do, if you can do it after every single session, that’s awesome, it doesn’t, doesn’t have to be a long time I do it now it takes me maybe like one to three minutes to do the whole thing to just kind of clear everything out. And then after I do that clearing, I always make sure to ground myself also. So and that doesn’t have to be a visualization. I mean, that’s cool. But I find it just as effective to just either like stretch, move my body a little bit, feel my feet planted, sturdy on the ground, to do like a little forward fold.

And if that’s not accessible to you, you know, you can just feel all of the places where your body is in contact with a surface that supports you. So if you can’t stand if you’re if you’re in a wheelchair or something like that feeling, you know, everywhere where like your arms rest everywhere, maybe where your head rests, where you’re feeling that support, that’s really a good way to to bring that grounding into your body. Even if you just kind of like roll your neck around a little bit, feeling you’re a kind of physical body in whatever space that you’re in. So those two things really go a long way in terms of being able to manage your energy long term, and to not feel so depleted because even those of us even if you set the very strong boundaries, you will still have days where you’re feeling depleted or you feel like you’re taking stuff on and where there is a lot of stuff that can kind of get get stuck and particularly right now, because these are very anxious times. It’s it’s really important to notice how it’s affecting you To take your your power back a little bit. Because there are a lot of situations right now, where many of us are feeling powerless. And this is something that you can do. It’s a place where you can assert yourself. And it’s really important.

And then finally, the last thing that I want to talk about, which I will elaborate on, in a couple weeks on the next episode, where I talk about boundaries for the holidays, and family is meditating on some of the exchanges of energy that you’re struggling to break. And what I mean by this is, a lot of the time when we show up, in particular, in our romantic relationships, and like I said, in our immediate family, we might find that there is a particular energetic exchange, that is not really serving either of us. So it’s not really serving our relationship. And I don’t just mean romantic I can, that can mean with parents, with siblings, with children. Where we really feel like something is stuck, like we’re stuck in this pattern, we keep seeing this cycle play out that neither of us wants to participate in. And yet we’re doing it over and over. When that happens, I want you to think about sitting down, and then just taking a moment to connect to that exchange, and try to approach it less with like fear or anger or resentment, and more with curiosity. So asking questions, like, why is this so hard for me to break? What is it about this exchange that’s so challenging to give up? Because often what’s happening is we are afraid that if we it’s usually something like this, we are afraid that if we stop doing that, for that person, that they will resent us or they will, in some way, withhold from us something that we want, or feel like we are mean, or not a nice person or not a good partner.

And we feel we feel that way. And they might feel like you know, they don’t trust themselves to do that thing for themselves. So they keep putting it on you to do it for them. And so we you know, there’s there’s a lot of different ways that these things come up. That’s just an example.

But when we have those situations where it’s really hard for us to let go of that exchange, and we can kind of feel that connection and see that cycle playing out over and over, trying to get curious and asking those questions will will help you to start to let go of that a little bit. It doesn’t mean that suddenly, overnight, you’re going to be, you know, nailing it, absolutely not unfortunately, but at the same time, you will start to gain a little bit more clarity about it. And I’m betting that both of you will start to gain some clarity about it can be tricky. And like I said, I’m going to talk about it a little bit more in my next solo episode. But I do think that it’s important to notice and to be more curious than critical about those energetic exchanges that are harder to break. And I also want to mention that sometimes, especially in partnerships, there are times where we might need to carry a little bit more of the load because our partner might be struggling. And there’s also times where they might need to carry a little bit more of the energetic load. And that’s okay, you know, not everything needs to be in balance all of the time. Hopefully, over a lifetime, it kind of balances out, you know, you don’t always want it to be imbalanced either. But it’s okay for things to temporarily shift as well.

So I hope that you found that helpful, and educational. And I would love to hear what came up for you. If you tried some of these exercises, you can definitely send me a message on Instagram or send me an email. That’s all I have for us today. But I will be back next week and in two weeks to talk a little bit more about boundaries. So that’s all for today.

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you, and what you’d like to hear even more of, as always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Tech Witch Intuition and Embodying the Hanged One & the 6 of Swords with Patty Ryan Lee

In episode 19 of Living Tarot, I interview my friend Tech Witch, Patty Ryan Lee. Patty Ryan Lee is the witch, tarot reader, and web developer behind The Fiery Well, a bespoke web design, branding, business, and tech support space just for witches. She works 1:1 with select clients and supports a community of business witches in her monthly membership program, The Wellspring. From your “why” to your “ how the fuck do I build it,” it is Patty’s goal to support you on your journey to online entrepreneurship.

  • We talk about how Patty stepped into her role as a web designer creating websites for witches and also how she accepted the label of witch.
  • We discuss how motherhood changed Patty and I helped her show up as her authentic self.
  • We discuss how important it is to understand your why in business and how no matter how much work you put in, if you can’t answer that question it makes everything else you’re doing more difficult. 
  • Patty talks all about creating her tech support community for Woo prenuers, The Fiery Well.
  • Patty is currently taking a social media break through the end of the year but you can check out her blog all about it here and follow along with how she runs an online business without social media

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Connect with Patty:

Follow along with Patty’s Anti-Social media Captain’s Log here:

Find me at

Freebie for your audience:

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing. Empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot.

Hey there a tarot friend. I wanted to ask you for a quick favor. I’ve been working very hard behind the scenes to get Living Tarot out there in front of as many people as possible, but I can’t do it without your help. So for the month of November 2020, I am running a special contest. And the prize will be a career ahead tarot reading, which is a reading of the full view of the year ahead in your business or career. So if you would like to enter, head on over to Apple podcasts, and review Living Tarot, preferably with a five star review, and leave a comment about what you learned from the podcast, your favorite episode, or even questions that you might have, that you’d like me to answer on upcoming episodes, and then share a screenshot of that review over on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit. And if you don’t have Instagram, you can always send a screenshot to my email. I’ll include more info about how to enter this contest over on Instagram and in the show notes for today’s episode. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. I am so excited today to interview one of my business besties, Patty Ryan Lee. Patty Ryan Lee is the witch, tarot reader, and web developer behind The Fiery Well and bespoke web design, branding, business and tech support space just for witches. She works one on one with select clients and supports a community of business witches in her monthly membership program the wellspring from your why? to your How the fuck do I build it? It is Patty’s goal support you on your journey to online entrepreneurship. Patty, as I said, is a friend from a business program that I was in earlier this year. I have also been a member of her membership program the wellspring for about six months now. And it has absolutely opened my eyes not just to how to be more efficient with my tech in business, but also how to include things like accessibility and some of my online offerings, and how to continue to develop a web presence that’s in alignment with how I really want to be serving my customers and not just how I feel like I should be serving my customers. This conversation was so much fun. And we had a really lovely discussion about how Patty embodies the hanged one because of her ability to really shift perspective, and also the six of swords in the way that she can really help Shepherd you away from the things that aren’t working. Even if you don’t know exactly where you can end up. She really acts as a facilitator to get you there. So I am so excited for you to listen to this episode. Let’s dive right in.

Awesome so welcome to Living Tarot today I have my friend Patti with me Patty Can you introduce yourself and tell us what it is that you do? 

Patty Ryan Lee  4:17  

Hi, waving doesn’t work because this is on the air. But I am currently waving from Dayton, Ohio and I am Patty Ryan Lee. And I am the witch and tarot reader and web developer behind The Fiery Well. I make quote unquote hashtag websites for witches. And I help soul centered entrepreneurs and “woopreneurs” as I like to call them with all of their technical and I guess because oh my god, yes. Yes. I sing as well with all their shit with all their technical shit. Right. So and I’m kind of adding in, like business guidance. So it’s, you get kind of business guidance plus the technical it’s what should I do? Okay. How the hell do I do it? This way? Here’s your systems. Here’s your technical to go with it. So that’s kind of where I’m headed with my membership, The Wellspring of which you are currently a member.

Sheila M  5:13  

I am a member. I know. And and one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on is because I think that what you do is so unique. I mean, I’m sure you don’t, because you’re out there seeing everybody who’s doing the same thing similar to me, you know, where I’m like sitting everybody else’s reading tarot. I’m like, Oh, this is just like everybody else. But But I think your you know, your perspective is unique. And we were in a business development program earlier this year, during the the beginning of the pandemic and the craziness of the year. And I’m really, I mean, part of what inspired me to join, join the wellspring When you opened it was that in our in our little, like, chat group for, for the group of people that was in that program, you there was like, not a single question that came up that you couldn’t just kind of, like, rattle off an answer to like, how does Patty know literally everything about every piece of technology like this, unbelievable. And since joining, I’ve seen how much like I’m, I’m a big fan of saying stay in like, you know, zone of genius, and and all of that. And I think like, I’ve seen how from the very beginning, because I joined in your first run how like your program has evolved, and it just keeps getting better. And you keep kind of narrowing it down more and more towards what what you really want to do. So it’s been very helpful for me, because I would say that technology is not a part of my zone of genius. And I recognized this year, how important it is to make an investment in the things that you aren’t good at when you are an entrepreneur. 

Patty Ryan Lee  6:57  

It Yeah, and that’s kind of it’s very difficult to do, yes. To say, Oh, I need help. That’s very hard for me to do. And then to actually go out and do it. That takes a very high level of bravery. Yes.

Sheila M  7:18  

And truly, like not just because we’re friends, but like it has truly been worth its weight in gold. Since I, it’s not even, you know, it is the support, absolutely. But it’s also the peace of mind that I have that if I get into something where I’m in over my head, I have somebody that I can go to that is a resource. So it’s not just the community itself. But it’s also the fact that you’ve set yourself up in such a way that I feel really confident coming to you with problems with issues that come up in pretty much any kind of system that I’m running into, to be honest, yeah.

Patty Ryan Lee  7:58  

That makes me very happy to hear. And it’s, I’ve done my best to simplify. I want to lead by example and say, Hey, you don’t have to pack it all in. You can do this very simply. Very easily. Less is more. And I am insurance. Yeah, I am. nobody really wants right. But I am the insurance company for your technical problems. Like, Oh shit, how does this work in ConvertKit? Oh, fuck. Oh, yeah, well, you just do this. Let’s hop on a loom. Let’s hop on a workshop. And let’s just do this, right?

Sheila M  8:36  

Yeah, it’s literally I’ll ask a question. And like five minutes later, there’s like a video that’s like, here’s the step by step walkthrough of how to do it. And I’m like, how did? How did you do it so fast? And it’s the best i can’t i truly, I can’t recommend it enough. I’m like your biggest fan girl. But um, I know you’ve been doing this basically. Like, since it began, since web development was like, I think you’re doing it a really long time. So can you talk a little bit about what led you to that and what kind of got you started?

Patty Ryan Lee  9:08  

My parents started in 1995 -1996. And it really started as a competition between my dad and myself of who could understand HTML, more quicker. He won, but then I went off to do a lot more right and, um, yeah, so it was a website dedicated to the industrial weighing industry. Shout out skill Buyer’s Guide, but I closed that last year to focus on my baby. Which time I didn’t have a baby. In terms of business, I had a I had an actual living child. But yeah, I’ve been doing this a while. I was 10 when they started. Just to age myself and I love it. I love the technology. I don’t Like the rapidness of it, like there’s constantly something new to learn. As I’m sure you feel in business, it’s like, oh, fuck, something’s changed. I have to learn this again, I have to learn it over. Now there’s something new. And if you look back, all websites are still built on HTML. Yep. Right. It’s still Tim berners. Lee internet, right. And that’s not going to, I hope, knock on wood. It’s not going to change. Hi, guys. So it is much new technologies out there. You can still do the basics, you can still do this simple. Keep it simple. And it’s taken a long time for me to realize that I was always trying to figure out okay, I need to learn this crap. Can you learn this? crap? I’ve already forgotten what I just.

Sheila M  10:48  

Yeah, only so much can fit in your head at once. 

Patty Ryan Lee  10:52  

Yeah, right. And then every company I ended up working for whether it was hired as a secretary or chocolatier. I ended up doing their website. It didn’t matter. Like it’s like, oh, you know this? It’s like, yeah, what’s hard about this. Apparently, it’s actually quite difficult. Uh, yeah. Okay, let’s, let’s walk you through this and how to do this. And, yeah, the ways.

Sheila M  11:18  

I think a big part of like intimidation, too, you know, I think like, um, for me at least, well, first of all, I do want to go back to something that you said, which is like, you get into business for yourself, and you think that you’re doing one thing. So like, I started my company, and I was like, Okay, I’m doing healing work and Tarot. So like, I’m doing Reiki, and I’m doing Tarot. So it’s like, all I have to do, but then you’re like, Okay, well, like, I should probably have a website, like, at least so people can like find me. So then you’re like, I always say, being a solopreneur. and protect in particular, it’s like, you have two jobs all of the time, you have the business manager, who’s learning how to build the website, how to maintain the website, how to do email marketing, how to set up your scheduler, how to do all of that stuff. And then you’ve got the person who’s actually the work that you actually set out to do, which is actual session work. I’m working with people and teaching Tarot. And one of the things that being in the wellspring has really helped me with is like, the business manager apart because I’m like, okay, I don’t have time to do research on these 17 technology tools to try to figure out which one is worth learning. So like, it kind of like narrows that down and in a major way. But also, one of the things that has been really helpful is, you kind of you don’t just say like this, you explain the why behind it. Yes, it has been very helpful for me, because you can understand that there’s different personalities that are coming in looking for different things. And so it’s kind of like, this isn’t better than this. It’s more about like, what works for you. And you make it right, even though it is a community, you make it very personal, which I think is awesome.

Patty Ryan Lee  13:09  

Oh, wonderful. I’d love to hear that. Because that’s that’s the goal. Because I I’m glad you mentioned why because that has been my obsession for this last year is figuring out the why why do you do this? Why are you this way? You know, what is? What is my motivation, as they would say? Right? Yeah. And it comes down exactly in technology. What, what website maker should I use? Should I use Squarespace? Should I use WordPress? And it’s like, well, what are you trying to do? Yeah, that’s what matters. Yeah. Because you may not need either. I’m the web developer that will tell you, you don’t need a website. Yep. I need the tool that does what you’re trying to do. Right. And that’s been a difficulty is not everybody needs the square peg. Right? Um, or the square hole? I’m a round peg. Yeah. How do I use come to me and I can help you figure that out. I had a conversation in a group. And it was like, you know, if you ask in a Facebook group, hey, what do you recommend for a website, right? And you get umpteen replies. They’re all different. And it’s like, I’m the only one asking questions. It’s like, Well, excuse me. What do you What are you actually trying to do? Yeah. Oh, ah, and it stops people in their tracks. Because most people think about their website in terms of, quote, unquote, a website makes it real. Thank you. Squarespace. I hate you. A not to knock Squarespace. It works. If it’s the tool for you. That’s the tool you should use. But like, I have opinions and all these I have hot takes on all of them. 

Sheila M  14:59  

Lay ’em down. I’ll take hot takes All night.

Patty Ryan Lee  15:04  

Oh, it comes down to most people don’t know why they want a website. They know that they need one, they know that they’ve been fed that line, I need a website, or I’m not a real business, I need a website or I can’t do this. And I think it’s a wonderful excuse that people have. And I think I’m guilty of it myself spending a lot of time working on your website, because you’re unsatisfied in your business. Yep. Yep.

Sheila M  15:31  

I think like, I’ve seen so many, especially now that I am in more, you know, business groups on Facebook and different communities. I see. I can see it now. As soon as somebody starts asking the question about the tools, you know, what I mean? That they’re, like, distracted by like, a shiny thing, you know, like, they’re like, what’s gonna? And, and it’s a different quality, then somebody who comes in and is like, Hey, I’m having this problem. What tool Have you guys use to solve this problem? It’s more like, um, you know, what’s the best marketing software? I looked at this? But like, I don’t really know, you know, and you’re, like, just talk to people?

Patty Ryan Lee  16:12  

Well, and it’s hard to to articulate what it is you’re trying to do, when it’s something you’ve never done before. Right. And your only experience is observing other people that have got this mastered on Instagram, or Facebook, and they have these complete sales funnels. It’s all automated. And it’s, you know, the, what do they call it? The, the money you don’t work for?

Sheila M  16:40  

Oh, passive income. Passive income. Yeah, that’s like a ton of work.

Exactly. I like the idea of passive like, it takes so many steps to get to that point. And I think like, for me, even just like this podcast is the perfect example. Because I was like, oh, like, I really want to do a podcast, because I just, I didn’t feel like the blog was landing in the same way as a conversation does. And so I was like, well just do this podcast. So I just need to be able to record. And then I need editing software. And then I just need like, a place to host the RSS feed. That’s it. But then it was like, oh, except that I need a process. You know, I and I’m, like, Miss, like, strategic. So I’m like, Well, I need like a standard standard operating procedure for like, the whole process that I’m going to do. So I have like, I literally have like project management software, where I track track every single step. And I’m like, people see a podcast, they don’t know, they were like, literally 12 steps. Until that was out. You know, it’s having the conversation with the guests like a filler conversation, and then the actual scheduling conversation, and sending them the email with all of the information and then actually doing the interview, and then editing the podcast, and then doing the transcript. Oh, my God, that is the part. brutal, like checking the transcript right now. And like, that’s the first thing I’m outsourcing, checking the transcripts. And then, you know, making the show notes, doing the graphics, doing the sound clips, then finally uploading it sending all the stuff to the guest. I’m like, there’s literally like 15 steps between me like scheduling someone and actually getting the podcast up and running.

Patty Ryan Lee  18:23  

And the brain space required to consider all of that, r

Sheila M  18:27  

right, less now b/c i have a system. 

Patty Ryan Lee  18:30  

Right? But it can only become a system once you start.

Sheila M  18:35  

Right. Exactly.

Patty Ryan Lee  18:37  

Exactly. That’s where a lot of people get tripped up. It’s, well, I need to have everything perfect before I can do anything. Yes. And I’m guilty of it in past. I mean, I’ve been a web developer for 20 plus years. And it scares the shit out of me to say hi, yes, I’m a web developer. 20 years of experience. Yeah. Like I used to dream in code. But I’m not good enough. Right? I have to show that I am perfection. Yeah, before I can ever get a client. Well, how do you get a client? Without doing the work? Like how does it’s a bad cycle that you get yourself into? 

Sheila M  19:17  

Yeah, and we all do this and and i think women or people who were socialized female growing up do it especially because we have this idea that we are somehow like less than or really, we’re socialized to believe that we’re less than, and we should always be in my supporting roles. And I still remember this conversation I had with my mom It was quite a few years ago now but she had been working at the same company that she had worked at, like since I was like born like she had been there for like 25 years. And they were closing down her office and they offered her the opportunity to move like to relocate or to like take a layoff and she was so um she was so upset because um, she She didn’t, she didn’t go to college, she went to a trade school and she had literally 25 years of experience. And she was like, she was like, I’m gonna get disqualified from all of these jobs because I don’t have a bachelor’s degree. And I was like, if you get disqualified by a company because you have 25 years of experience instead of a bachelor’s degree, you don’t want to work there. Like that is the place. No vision, and it’s ridiculous. Like that ridiculous thing to be worried about. How dare you?

Patty Ryan Lee  20:30  

Yes. And but it’s because I’ve always I bucked the system from a very young age. When I was in seventh grade, I convinced my mother to homeschool me. My gosh, bless her , I don’t know, she still doesn’t know how I did it. And it stuck, right? And I refuse to take the SAT ACTS refused. And it was like, Okay, well, then you’re going to have to, like stick with community college or whatever else. Like, that’s fine. I don’t want to be a number on somebody’s piece of paper. You know, and I don’t want a career. I always wanted to have like multiple jobs. I should have known better. And don’t want that too much. But I was like, I don’t want to fall in line with any system, especially. And I didn’t even understand the system I was in at the time. But I knew something did not mesh out there. With what I had going on inside me. I was like, This is not and it’s most people would say, well, you’re an Aquarius. I know of course you’re going buck. 

Sheila M  21:37  

Such an Aquarius right now. And I say that as somebody who in my life is very surrounded by Aquariuses

Patty Ryan Lee  21:49  

Oh, hell, I for the longest time I thought aquarians were water signs. Like, with the waves, you know? And I’m like, Yeah, what’s the

Sheila M  21:56  

well it’s the water water bearer? So it’s a little confusing,

Patty Ryan Lee  21:59  

right? I’m like, so of course, I’m gonna have like an a skewed version, and view of the world. In my own zodiac sign is like, what? Right? So yeah, astrology still escapes me. I’m trying. I’m trying to learn. How do you keep this all together? I’ll stick with code.

Sheila M  22:25  

Excited. Let’s talk about that part of it a little bit, because I understand the web developer part. But what kind of brought on the websites for witches? Like when did you get into all of the witchy or stuff and like, you know, being more into the woo of it all?

Patty Ryan Lee  22:44  

Oh, I’ve always been a witch. I’ve always been accused of being a witch. Yeah. And it’s like, Are you are you because I was like, the goth kid when I was in school. I was the creepy kid. You know, I was the one always in black. Are you going to a funeral want to make it yours kind of person. And, you know, I was always struggling with my identity and all of this. And I really, really rejected religion. My father was raised Catholic. My mother was raised Protestant, Irish Catholic, English Protestant.

Sheila M  23:22  

I was like that sounds like a war right there.

Patty Ryan Lee  23:27  

We used to always joke. My mom would want to go to church for the music and the community. And my dad would sit there, like, closed off, arms folded skin crawling. Like, ugh, because he had pretty much stepped away from the church. Law Long, long ago. And with my sister who’s 10 years, my senior, love you Emily. She was she was the hippy. She was the witch. She was the one with the tarot cards. And she was the cool sister, right? She’s a leo, like,

Sheila M  24:04  

oh my gosh she’s me. I I’m a cool sister. I’m the tarot card reading sister. Oh my gosh. I’m looking at my baby sister right now. And she’s an Aquarius.

Patty Ryan Lee  24:16  

See, there we go. And we have that total opposite thing. 

Sheila M  24:19  

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Let’s continue. Sorry.

Patty Ryan Lee  24:24  

Oh, she was always you know, with the tarot cards in the witchy in the ouiji board. Okay, creepy. My dad is just like he would raise everything wholly up that he still believed in. And so I witnessed him with that in the occult, and I witnessed my mom just want the music. My mom loves music, loves gospel music, especially and wanting that sense of community. And yet, I’m the one sitting in I can remember what it’s called anymore. But where you sit and you get preached at when you look up If I felt like I was in an overturned boat, and I was looking up at the hull of the ship, like the with the Gothic arches and the way it’s designed, I’m like, I feel like I’m in an capsized boat. I feel like I’m in Poseidon, which is my my dad’s favorite movies. I’m like, I can’t be the only one feeling this right now. Right? There’s something wrong. And it was a very young age, I realized that what they were saying up front. Everybody down in the pews. Everybody heard something different. Because I am not hearing what y’all hear.

Sheila M  25:35  

Same. My parents would be like, like, that was great. Like, yeah, what? are you kidding me? That was so uncomfortable. And also it always, I think from the time I was really young, even before I understood everything about myself. Now, I always thought it was weird to like go through, like in Catholicism, you have to like everything goes through the priest or like the Pope, you know, like, like the only Oh, yeah, it’s something you can’t pray. But like, everything important has to come from like a priest. And to me, even as a kid that was always like, fucked up. Like, I just, I never got it. I never connected with it. And it never felt like the truth to me. And then, on top of that, of the political stuff with the church, like, even when I was young just made me uncomfortable. Like, I don’t like I’m very, I think I have like, a problem with authority. And like the second somebody’s like, don’t do this thing. And I’m like, Well, I didn’t want to have sex. But now I do.

Patty Ryan Lee  26:37  

What? Why don’t show me a red button. Or I’m going to want to press exactly button.

Sheila M  26:44  

Now I just love this stuff. Yes.

Patty Ryan Lee  26:47  

Yeah. And because we moved around, we went to Presbyterian churches, we went to Methodist. We never went through like a pure, proper Catholic Church. I think my dad probably just was like, No, I’m staying home. He stayed on most of them anyway. But, um, I was carted off to Sunday school, while they did like the regular thing. And I never understood that. I was like, Why do I have to go in this little room? And then they didn’t like that. I asked questions. Like, what? And why? Wait a minute. I thought he was I thought there were nails involved. He wasn’t just tied. No, no, no, honey, we don’t we don’t talk about I’m like, why am I getting a different story? Seven, why am I getting a different story? And it’s like, I don’t I don’t get this at all. So when I finally could voice I think it was in my late teens. I was like, I have to be at work. I can’t go. I’m tired. I’m done. I stopped we I stopped going. mom kept going. And then she got sick of the politics and you have to bring food and tithing. And isn’t that just like, screw this. But it’s like, I’m done. And I started picking up my own tarot deck and perusing the occult section of you know, the entire bookshelf that it was in Barnes and Noble at the time. Oh my god, with Silver Ravenclaw books. I think what’s your name? Was all Wicca. And I was like, Is this all there is like, is that it? There’s just Wicca. There’s nothing else. Like I don’t want another religion. Like, okay, so I guess I’m not a witch. And that was just like, I was just, I’m a theist, I guess. I don’t know what I am. But the witch is the closest thing right? Yeah. So I finally just leaned into it. And it was after I gave, I was pregnant with my son. And, ah, when you’re filling out the hospital documents for admission, you have to fill out your religion. And I just wrote, witch – just if something happens to you, they want to know if that makes sense.

Sheila M  29:10  

Yeah, there’s, there’s rules about people’s bodies and stuff and like how they should be treated and stuff. So I get it. Okay. I’m like, I’m like weird.

Patty Ryan Lee  29:20  

It was it First of all, like, Oh, we let make sense. Okay. Yeah. But the fact that I filled it out without thinking about it. Mm hmm. I was like, Oh, shit. I scribbled it out real quick. I’m like, I don’t want I want they’re probably going to get somebody wiccan in here. And I don’t want that. And to what they even know what the hell it meant, or would it make them run scared? Like, what would your judgment I’m about to go and give birth? And I’m worried about this, what I scribbled it out and just put agnostic. And yeah, so after giving birth, I should say my child. They they kind of put a I don’t know a kick in my ass to really be true to myself. Yeah, it’s like, I have to model. How am I supposed to honor who they’re gonna be if I can’t honor who I am. Yeah, and it was a whole thing re parenting the whole thing. Like, so far Oh, shit. I was like, I don’t recommend it. I love my child. I love my job. But if there is a glimmer of doubt about having kids don’t do it. Because they don’t tell you this part. Right. So yeah, and I just really started to just like, you know what, fuck it. I am a witch. Yeah. And then, like, so much fell into place after that and became so much easier. It was astounding. Yeah, how much more relaxed in myself, I felt. And I’m trying to figure out what to do for business. Like I’m trying to take on I inherited my family’s dotcom. I’m a woman. I hate scales. Okay. No, thank you. Like, I know how to properly calibrate them and do that is like, I know. I think this is not mine. This is not my baby, right? Mom’s like, then let it go. Like, full on Elsa. Let it go. 

Sheila M  31:23  

Yeah, seriously, 

Patty Ryan Lee  31:25  

And like, it took me like three years to finally convince myself. I was like, Okay, so what do I do? What do I do? Okay, you have to niche down or niche down. I haven’t made a website for anybody other than myself in 10 years, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? So I started reading, you know, you have to consume everything before you can take a step. You have to consume this that make sure you’re taking the next right step. And I want to book about niching down, and I’m reading this gun. What the fuck am I supposed to do make websites for witches? And I could feel the heat from the bulb over my head. I’m like, I just got I was like, I threw my hands up in the air. About near threw the ebook out of my hands is like, Oh my god, can I do that? Why the fuck not? Yeah. I was like, do witches need websites? Oh, girl.

Yes, I do. Yes, they do. Yes, I can tell you that right now. Um, I love that.I love like how that came up. Because I feel like that’s always what happens when people are like, Wait, can I really do this? Like, can I actually make a living doing this thing that like is this crazy idea that popped into my head? I’m so I know you kind of describe yourself on top of that. As a tarot reader? Did you learn Tarot from your sister? Like, what kind of and how long have you been reading? 

So I’ve been reading since I was about 1415. Okay. And often on a she used to do a full 32 card spread. And she never read the cards, like intuitively she write everything out of a book. And each card had a position that had a meeting. And ah, and it was fascinating to watch. So I got the book in my late teens. And I was reading through and I got a deck at Barnes and Noble  – a kit thing that they had at the time. I was like, Can I do this? No one is stopping me? Okay, so, and I started playing with it, and it was all pips. So you had the court cards and you had your major and then you just had five coins for five coins. It’s like, how does anybody memorize this? Because there’s nothing to go off of. I had never seen the rider Waite deck. Yeah, Pamela Smith deck. I had never seen that. And it’s like, what the hell? So I did a couple of readings for friends. That turned out to be on point and it’s like, oh, usually negative. And, like, okay, we’re gonna put that way for a while and not always get back into it. Cuz somebody’s like, oh, read the cards. Okay, sure. And my dad Of course, he’d walked into the room with the blessing, you know, like blessing himself. You only pulled up the blessing when the Luigi board came out? Oh, yeah. I can’t blame him on that. And I was a kid. It moved on me and I wasn’t near it was like it was across the room. I was like, oh, and our house was haunted as fuck. That’s like a portal. I yeah, I don’t we had we had one pass down. So it’s like, oh, we’re good. 

And tarot I’ve always had and I’ve always dabbled with, and I’ve always tried to make a consistent practice with it. But if you force it, it does. Work has always been my experience. So I let it come, I let it go when I needed to comes when I don’t need it. I don’t. And then when I met my now husband, I was like, Okay, well, this is getting serious. I think it’s time that I show him. I do this weird shit 

Sheila M  35:26  

I love this so much. 

Patty Ryan Lee  35:28  

Just test the waters. So I pulled out my cards, and I pulled out the book, you know, and it’s all wrapped up in the silk. Cuz, you know, like, when you think about this, he’s like, Oh, that’s cool. Let me show you the sigil that I drew, that I’ve had this psychic tribe. and I’m Like, wait a minute, okay, so I know that you kind of like we’re okay with, like horoscopes and this and that, but like, you’re into it. Sweet!

Sheila M  35:59  


Patty Ryan Lee  36:01  

 Yeah. And that was? Yeah, I mean, it was. We were destined, quote, unquote, to be so it kind of, but it was like, Here’s Your out. 

Sheila M  36:11  

Oh, my gosh, that’s so funny. 

Patty Ryan Lee  36:14  

And still didn’t play with them all that much. And then we went to a Halloween party about nine or 10 years ago. And I was inappropriately dressed. Let’s just put it that way. And brought my cards. And I spent four hours doing readings non stop. And I was freaking myself out with how accurate they were. And the people around me. And then like I started hearing other things. I’m like, I don’t know what this is. I don’t want to now. We’re not doing that. I’ve not had enough to drink for this. And I was like tripping high as a kite. euphoric for days afterwards. I do this for a living because this is like who? I was like, wait a minute, can I do this for a living? Am I any good? So then it went into Okay, now I have to study? Yep. And okay, so I started getting more books. And as I read these books, like, I never saw that in this card. What the hell? I must be doing this completely wrong. Yeah, I put them away for a while. And we’ll get the cards out. Okay, sure. Holy fuck. How did you know that? Well, I don’t know. Yeah. Cool. So when you had your course I’m like, Okay. Do I need another round of study? She’s, she’s not the whole study thing, right? It’s, do you have a meaning for the card? That’s the meaning. And it was so liberating. It was the first time I’d actually gotten like, an outside education and resource for it. And it was so liberating to know. I know what the fuck I’m doing. Because it’s not just the car.

Sheila M  38:11  

Yeah, your face when I said that in the q&a was like, it was like the my like the mind blown emoji? Yes. That’s like, yeah, like that’s the whole purpose. Like, yes. Does the card have like an objective meaning that most Tarot scholars or whatever have agreed on? Sure. But that is way less relevant because to me, and in the readings that I’ve done, what stands out even more are the times where it is like a complete departure from even like, my own definition of the card. Like when I see a card and just right away, like something comes into my brain. I’m like, Oh, that’s weird. That’s really important. Like, that’s not what that means. But that’s really important.

Patty Ryan Lee  38:50  

And but just to now have like the permission. Yeah, to do that was just like, oh, so then even when I was just doing like, the freebie fun things I would do on Instagram. It’s like, I’m not gonna argue with it anymore. Like, here it is. And I pulled up a card. I was like, Alright, this means fuck you pay me for somebody. And somebody messaged me, the next day is like, yeah, that was for me. Like, I don’t have anything right now. I’m waiting in you know, I’m unemployed. I mean, the next day, I have a job offer. There you go.

Sheila M  39:26  

I’m telling you, I it’s very funny with Tarot because I usually find that it’s like a look at just a teensy bit ahead sometimes for people. And so they’ll be like, okay, okay, like, that makes sense. That makes sense. You know, and, and like, it’s not like totally connecting, and then people will text me, like, a week later, or like two weeks later, and they’re like, How did you know? Like, that was so weird. Which I think is really funny about Tarot, because I’m always like, I tell and I tell people like, if you’re reading for someone else, like they may not always have the reaction in the moment. When you’re reading, it’s usually on like a little bit of a delay. And now I’ve gotten used to that. But in the beginning, it was terrifying. And in particular when you’re talking because I, I know what you’re talking about with like reading for people online. Originally, I was just doing email readings. And so I had this experience of like, people just asking a question, and then we pulling a bunch of cards and like sending them an email back. And I was like, I think there’s no context to this, like, we’re not having a conversation, which is like what I do in sessions now. It’s just like, if you asked me a question to me blindly telling you what I think. And people would email me back after those readings and be like, holy shit, how did you know all of this stuff? Like this is? Like, there is no way you could have known from the question I was asking. And it was just like, for, you know, I wouldn’t even have the person’s like, full information. And I was like, okay, maybe there’s something to this. Like, maybe I just got to kind of like, let it you know, like you said, Let it go. Let it go. Just what’s there. You know?

Patty Ryan Lee  41:02  

 that’s why for the longest time, I could only read while drinking. Ah, yes. libation. And it’s like, I had one reader go, you don’t need to do that. He’s like, get relaxed, on your own. lean into it. You know what you’re doing? Yeah, yeah. Filter gone.

Sheila M  41:27  

Yeah. And it takes a while to feel comfortable with that, especially when you’re reading for other people. When you’re reading for yourself, it’s like a completely different experience. And you can kind of call your own bullshit. But like, when you’re when you’re reading for other people, like, you don’t always get the feedback. And some people are very, like stone faced. So you can’t really rely on it. And you shouldn’t really Anyway, you should just kind of read what you see. Because you’re responding to somebody like face, like, you might second guess yourself. So I would say like, stay stay in the zone. You know, I had this woman come in for a reading. And I was pulling cards for and like, literally three times the Justice card came up. And I was like, I don’t know what’s going on. I was like, we were doing a career reading. And like in three different polls that came up and I was like, I was like, Are you looking for a legal profession? I was like, the Justice keeps coming up. And I don’t know if it’s that, like, fairness is like this, like sense of like equity and like fairness is really important are like assessing what’s fair is really important. But like, I just keep seeing that Justice card. And I feel like it’s very, like it’s at the core of everything you do. And she’s like, well, I’m, I’m a judge. And the whole time, she’s been like super stone faced. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, This makes much more sense now. keeps coming up. So that’s why like, it’s very funny when when stuff like that happens, because I’m like, this is so literal, like, y’all literal right now. And that’s why it’s so important to like, pay attention to that intuitive impulse.

Patty Ryan Lee  42:58  

Yes. And do you notice and I’ve noted because I for the longest time, I only had the two decks, I had the one that was just pips. And then I had the Robin wood, they finally had imagery. And I built a relationship with this deck. And it does not like the public eye. So it stopped working for a while. I was like, What the hell is this?

Sheila M  43:16  

My Coleman Smith rider Waite doesn’t like readings for other people. So I never like I use that deck personally. But it does not work very well for other people. So like you won’t see it on my Instagram and stuff or on my pick a cards, because it just doesn’t like people.

Patty Ryan Lee  43:31  

Like this is why you need to connect with other readers or from other readers. Because for the longest time, I thought it was like What the hell is going on? Is it what is happening here? So I started buying other decks, which I thought I would never do. And now I own way too many. 

Sheila M  43:50  


Patty Ryan Lee  43:51  

Like the Modern Witch. That is my deck of reversals. Yes. As we show it is my deck of reversals, like nine out of 10 pulls is reversed. And it is the most literal of decks that I have ever had in my life.

Sheila M  44:12  

I do find it in my readings to to also be pretty literal, which I think is interesting.

Patty Ryan Lee  44:17  

Okay. That’s fascinating. That is fascinating to me.

Sheila M  44:22  

And I use it a lot for other people’s readings.

Patty Ryan Lee  44:26  

Yes, yeah. Yeah, I used it. When I was doing it for the general public for my questions from the Tarot. I was like, Oh, shit, can I actually ask this question?

Sheila M  44:38  

I know, I know. I used forever I used Um, so my most commonly used one right after I first started other than the Coleman Smith rider Waite was the Star Child Tarot, which I used for literally like, two three years like for my own readings and for client readings and stuff and recently, I noticed that It just, I was having a it was so weird. It was almost like I was having like a mental block. I wrote a blog post about it about breaking up with a tarot deck. And I was saying how I was just having a really hard time reading it for some reason. Yeah. And like it had always, like, clicked right away when I read for other people. And I was like, something is going on here. Where like, it’s just not as easy to read anymore. And I’m not quite sure why. And so I shifted to another deck, of course, at first because of imposter syndrome. I was like, Oh my God, I’ve lost it. You know, like, I don’t have it anymore. You know, I’m no longer psychic

Patty Ryan Lee  45:39  

like it’s aa tangible thing that you can buy at the store

Sheila M  45:42  

exactly. Exactly. Um, and then I was like, Oh, wait, no, it’s still fine. It’s just, I think it’s just this deck. So I’ve been like on a little bit of a timeout, I still love it. Like, I still love that deck. But I’ve been using the Modern Witch in my readings for other people a lot. And it is, it is so interesting, because it is, I do find it to be like very like literal, which I think it’s like very fun. Like I they all have like a little personality, which I think is interesting. Even though iyou know as I say all the time, the cards aren’t magical. They’re an inanimate object, you know?

Hey there, I wanted to remind you that this is a great time of year to get a career ahead tarot reading, this reading will give you a full view of the year ahead in your business or career. It’ll enlighten you as to the stories that you’re telling yourself about your work in business. It’s a full Look what feels true, what is true, and how to work through doubt and imposter syndrome. We’ll talk about what obstacles you may be coming up against so that you can be prepared to meet them, and how to play to your strengths, and where to focus your energy. Your session will be fully collaborative and offer you the opportunity to weigh your options and evaluate different career paths and offers. This reading is designed to empower you to make career choices that offer you the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion. And to consider things you might not have. clients who’ve had one of these sessions with me have been able to analyze job offers aligned new services and products with their value, and things like the timing to roll them out. And felt empowered to negotiate five figure salary increases. This is the perfect time of year for this type of reading. And I don’t have a ton of availability around the holidays. So if you are interested, make sure you head on over to the show notes and look into booking a session today.

Patty Ryan Lee  47:47  

I think it’s I don’t know if it’s the imagery because I like because then I immediately go to the psychology of the imagery they used and the colors and all of this. So is it that so how we approach the deck because I have another deck. I had a friend over for reading. And I was like, Okay, do you want the kinder gentler deck for this? Or do you want like the Absolute Truth? And she’s like, well, let’s start here. And it’s very nice, elegant kind of deck. Simple. And it’s like, okay, like the message message is harsh. But it’s pretty. concrete. 

Sheila M  48:23  

I know. And I do I have some that are very, like direct and some that are like a little bit more gentle. And I will pay attention to that when I’m coming into. If I’m like, Oh, I’m feeling really raw today, I’m gonna like you. Nice to me, I’m gonna use this one. Because it’s a little more soothing, you know, and it’s not lying to yourself, but like, sometimes you can’t take the tough love,

Patty Ryan Lee  48:46  

you know? You have to connect with that imagery, I think. Yeah, yeah. So how,

Sheila M  48:54  

how does your intuition kind of show up? And not just in your readings, but also in your business? Because I know you’re kind of in the process right now of of reworking the wellspring, and that’s been very intuitively led. So what, what really inspired that for you, and and what, um, what made you decide to kind of shift things that way.

Patty Ryan Lee  49:20  

I’m actually going closer to what I had originally wanted to do. But was talked out of which I think you hear a lot with people with intuition. It’s like my gut said to do this. And I was like, okayed, out of it. It’s like, it works, and I like it. But this is not me, this is not what I want. So we’re gonna go back and flow with the original plan, and that gut check and it felt good in the body. And just do and it’s like, the more in line I get with, my body feels because I’m learning to sense the intuition in my body? Like how does it feel? You know, cuz that has always been a disconnect cuz it’s always just been, you know you’re in the grocery store Oh, the alarms gonna go off? Fuck, fuck it went off. You know, what did I not get tagged? Right? That kind of annoying little while it’s not a voice but you can hear it in your head, I don’t know how else to describe it. And now I’m learning to sense it within the body so I can recognize, oh, this is what this means.

Sheila M  50:29  

Yeah. And I think I talked about that in my high priestess embodiment course because especially when you’re first starting out with intuition. I mean, you’re kind of late in the game, you know, like years ago, it would have been much easier for you. But it’s funny because like, I always say like, the first step is to be able to recognize it in your physical body, because that’s what’s going to tip the scale between all the doubt that we feel when we have an illogical quote unquote, impulse. Yeah, um, and when that happens, if you can tune into the physical sensation, so initially, I would have, like, I would have like a real sensation, like in my chest like, right like at like my sternum, which was like a yes or a no, and they felt different. And then it changed. It changed a little over time. And so now, at like an I am having like a very untraditional shuffler. If you’ve ever had a reading with me that is not normal. Like, I tell people all the time, like, this is a really weird way to do things. But I don’t just shuffle the cards and then like, draw out the top 10 or whatever it is. I keep shuffling until it feels like the right card, which like I literally get like a chill in my body. And then I stopped and I flipped, because people people who come in for readings will watch me do it. And they’re like, how did you know it’s that card? I’m like, I don’t know. I just feel it. Like I just yeah, I’m just used to it now. And then sometimes I’ll get like a head nod or a head shake. Like sometimes if I just like, Listen for a second. I’ll get like a nod or and say, Yeah,

Patty Ryan Lee  52:12  

I’d get like calm. Yeah, it’s just like this pure pindrop split second of just pure calm, which is not something I have much in my life. It’s like, oh, oh, I need to pay attention to that.  Oh, okay. And I’ll stop shuffling or a card will fall out at that time. And it’s like, Oh, okay. I’m having a conversation. And all of a sudden, I’ll go from palpitations to calm and it’s like, oh, okay, here we go. And it’s just a deep calm. I don’t know how to describe it. Cuz I’m not like a very calm as I shake, like jazz hands all over the place. I’m not kidding. This is audio only.

Sheila M  53:04  

It’s hard because we are technically looking at each other. So it makes sense. But yeah, and variously my partner is an Aquarius, and I we’re always talking about like Aquarius, Leo, thank you and I, but my partner is an Aquarius, and I know Gemini rising and it’s always like talking with his hands. Like, whenever we would like to eat I’d be like, Oh, you’re gonna slap the waitress? Like, talk with your hands less, you know?

Patty Ryan Lee  53:36  

Yeah, I yeah. And it’s my husband can always go. Are you excited about something? Exactly. Very, very movie. Right? Like, it’s going up? Yeah. I love

Sheila M  53:50  

Yeah, I love the way that you talked about, like your intuition, like showing up physically. I did an interview that’s coming out two weeks from when this episode airs with Eliza swan. Who wrote anatomy of the aura. And she, um, she talks about how we were talking about Clairaudience because I have like a lot of auditory stuff. And she was saying for her Clairaudience, I am trying to remember how she said it. She said, it’s like, there’s someone talking at the bottom of a well, in the middle of her brain. She’s like, it’s sounds like there’s like a muscle like at the bottom of the well in the middle of my brain. I was like, Oh my gosh, yes.

Patty Ryan Lee  54:33  

Oh my gosh. Like I am stunned because now it’s like trying to remember. Yeah. Oh, I’ll have to pay more attention to that now. 

Sheila M  54:43  

Yeah, yeah. It’s so fascinating. Yeah. 

Patty Ryan Lee  54:48  

Whoo. I like that.

Sheila M  54:50  

And I often find for me, and it’s a little bit different for me because I, um, you know, sometimes it will be like the lack of sound like you said, like, you Find that like stillness. So sometimes he has I am very auditory. Sometimes it will be like there’s a lack of sound. And I’m like, Oh, what’s that? I have to like, signal to like pause and listen for a second because it’s like, the entire world’s been like turned way down.

Patty Ryan Lee  55:16  

Mm hmm. That’s interesting. Because I sometimes I’ll just blurt out things that I just know. I don’t know where that came from. But apparently I know that, because it’s like, Did I hear it before I said it, but I think it before I said it, I have to pay attention. Because now that I’m learning to pay attention, yeah. Like, where is that happening? So that I can tap into that more. But my problem is that my intuition is usually Bad. Bad things.

I hear this a lot. And I’m, I’m curious about it, because I’ve heard it from a couple different people. And then like, what is that because every once in a while, I will get something that’s quote unquote, bad. So when you say bad, what do you mean?

miscarriages, divorces, deaths. Um, you know, the alarms gonna go off, fascism is going to rise in the United States, that kind of thing. 

Sheila M  56:22  

So, okay, this is interesting question about this. And I think that when it is something like that, and I talked about this again, in in the High Priestess thing, I think that often when it is something that is like a threat, or like something dangerous, which again, is different for different people, and people would learn from experiences, people of color. People have like a different lived experience. It’s it’s different, though. Yeah. But it’s always the things where we assess danger, that seems to be louder and easier to recognize, you know what I mean? So it might just be that you’re more aware of that initially, then some of the other stuff, too.

Patty Ryan Lee  57:05  

That is interesting. I will have to pay attention to that. Because it’s, yeah, because and actually, that makes a lot of sense. Because the more I’m aware of my own anxieties of my now that I’m I had to go to therapy to realize that I actually had trauma in my life. I was like, This isn’t normal. No, honey, this is this is this is not normal. Like, that’s what happens. Everybody doesn’t live in this constant state of panic. That’sa weird. Wait, I had a traumatic childhood. Really? Oh, oh. Oh, wow. Okay. And since I’m aware of all of these things, now, ignorance is really bliss. That’s all. I was like, uh, let me be cipher with my medium rare steak in the matrix and just put me back in. But at the same time, No, I’m good. Now that I’m aware of that, in my anxieties. And what is that and learning now to decipher the intuition? Where in the body? Is this bad? No, this is this is like you said a warning. Okay. I’m aware now, there’s actually less of it. A more attention to that. This is, as I tell my friends, this is my year of paying attention to my body.

Sheila M  58:23  

Yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah. And also, yeah, sometimes what can help too is like choosing something lower stakes. So one of the things we do is I could give, I could not give any less of a shit about fantasy sports of any kind. But we will play a game sometimes where we see whose team does better. Now, do I know anything about any teams? No, I do not. I do not. I don’t know anything about fantasy golf. I don’t know what’s happening. But we will play each other where one of us is obsessed and knows everything about everything. And one of us is just you know, me. And it’s been very interesting, because last year, last August, we went to Ireland. And it was kind of a ploy, because my partner is really into golf and wanted to see the British Open, which was in Northern Ireland. Oh, and I had never, I’d never been to, or Well, we had been one time to Northern Ireland, but I hadn’t spent like a lot of time there. So I was like, Okay, cool. So we went to the British Open. And when we were on the way there, he was, like, I want to place it that like Who do you think I should bet on and he was going through all of like, the top people like, I mean, like the top like 30 people or something that we’re gonna win. And I was like, No, no, no, no, no, it’s got to be one of these people. And I was like, it’s not just like, it’s nobody that you said. And then he just like gave up on me and like, picked somebody that he wanted to pick. And then it ended up being this guy that was from Ireland and was like, if you would place a bet on him. We won so much money. I don’t know. about sports out 64 to one or something like, oh, wow, the longest long shot for this guy to win. And what was hilarious is that not so hilarious at the time, but I sprained my ankle the day before we went and if you’ve ever been to a golf event, you know, a lot, a lot of walking, and a lot of road walking. And so I was and I’ve never, I’ve never like truly, like badly sprained my ankle, except for this time. And it’s so bad. Everybody was like were you drunk? I was like, No, I, we were literally on the bar, like, on our way to the bar the first night to like, have one beer and go to bed because we were so good legs. And I liked it. I there was like an uneven curve, and I just twisted it. And as soon as I did, I was like, Oh, it’s so bad. But anyway, we’re,we’re walking around and halfway through the day, I was like, I am in so much pain, like, I need to sit down, I need to have a drink. Like they’re so starting to drizzle. Like this is like, I was just like having like a Leo drama, hissy fit. And my partner’s like, Oh, no, no, it’s okay. Like, there’s a champagne tent over here. Like he was like your champagne intent. And I was like, fine. So going to the champagne. And what I am expecting in the champagne tend not to be sexist. But what I’m expecting the champagne tent is to basically be all the women that are at the event, which I guess is my problem, because I go right. And it’s a bunch of like, bro old guys in there together, just like splitting bottles of champagne, watching on these watching on these giant TVs. And I was like, it’s this real life. Like, what is happening right now?

So he gets me some champagne. And I’m like, sitting in this one chair at this table with another couple and these, you know, two sets of like, dude, best friend old guys. And we’re watching on the screen. He’s like, I’m gonna go out and watch, you know, so and so tee off like, and there was Wi Fi at the event. So we could text each other on WhatsApp. So he’s out there for a while and I’m watching. And this, they start showing the guy like the guy who wins, I’m seeing him. And I texted I texted my partner and I was like, Hey, I think we should go over to 14 and see this guy. I was like, you know, I just like I have a feeling about this. And he was just like, I mean, the last day he just like, climbed right right up the standings. I mean, it was like, all these people were doing crappy. And he just climbed right up. He was like, How did you know? Like, how did you know that? I was like, I don’t know. I just like look, oh, no, you know, like, it’s sometimes with the lower stakes stuff where you don’t give a shit at all. It’s just very easy to see because you’re not putting like that pressure. And there’s also not that fear where you’re like, where your body’s like, Oh my god, I’m not safe. Like now I need the internet and

Patty Ryan Lee  1:02:54  

well, it’s we were on our way to a wedding and, and it was just a flippin statement out the door. I was like I gave it two years. And like 22 months later, she’s on my door in tears getting a divorce. Yep. And I was like, Mm hmm. And I’ve been able to call this individuals relationships, every single one. And I feel really bad. I was like, This is because I did a reading for him. I was like, This is the person you need to be with. And he brought somebody over once. I was like, wait a minute, because it was the key difference was an age difference. I was like, that’s not it. And I did their engagement pictures. It wasn’t a tog refer at the time. And like two weeks after I did the pictures, they were broken up. I’m like, Why don’t y’all just listen. It’s the bad shit. It’s the bad stuff.

Sheila M  1:03:55  

Listen, I trust me when I say no, cuz sometimes I like at something and I’m like, cool. I want to know that.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:04:02  

Yeah. In case it does come and hit cuz the one that really stands out is you know, 17 we were in Alabama and looking to buy a house. I we my parents were looking to buy a house. I was dragged along. And we walked into this one house. And I was standing in the kitchen. I was talking to the realtor. I was like, Did anybody ever die on this house? Like there’s just this feeling right? Just like no, not that I’m aware of the last guy, the CIA agent or whatever. It’s like, Okay. Yeah, half later, that was the same spot My father died. Oh, that’s so freaky. exact spot. Oh, it’s so weird. So it’s like, holy shit. What was that? And then fast forward. You know, I’m really good with real estate now. So we go house hunting with my mom, and up here in Ohio. And I’m like, I walk into a house and I just had to say Alabama and we’re like, turn tail and go. We’re not getting this. She thought, because I told her I was like, there’s something wrong with this house. I don’t know if it’s the house, there’s just I just I don’t know, right? There’s just she thought I was just being, you know, like a stubborn 16 year old that just didn’t want to be in this space. I didn’t like the house was like, No, there was something wrong here.

Now she listens.

Sheila M  1:05:30  

I was gonna say so. So with everything that like that. How, how did your family of origin respond to that? Like, are they on board? Are they just kind of like, Oh, it’s this weird thing that we like kind of acknowledged, but like, we don’t really talk about? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:05:47  

Oh, no, no, now it’s, it’s, I mean, especially since that it’s been like, so what’s your feeling on this Patty? Like, what? What? What do you what do you think you know, what’s your gut tell you? And it’s like, because I was always raised to listen to your gut, listen to your gut. And experience told me otherwise. It was like, Okay, well, here’s my gut reaction. Well, no, not not now. Now doesn’t count as like, Okay. And now it’s okay. No, seriously, what do you feel like? Are you okay, this is good, like, with the cards, so I was just gonna be, and they’re very receptive to it. And I mean, my I didn’t learn this. I don’t learn the family secrets until after everybody dies. But great. my great grandparents on my mother’s side were masons, and they did seances, and all kinds of shit, and very, like supernatural kinds of things. And it’s like, you could have told me? Yeah, I like there’s an actual connection here. Right? Why? Yep. No, I don’t find anything out until after people die. And then it’s random on the phone. Like, Oh, you didn’t know that. NO

Sheila M  1:07:05  

I know I love like, the way things are like mentioned, I’m like, excuse me.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:13  

And they’re like, oh, that explains so much. Why did we talk about it? 

Sheila M  1:07:17  

Everybody acts like a weirdo, you know? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:19  

Yeah. And then that’s the thing. Do you ever notice though, it’s like, you pick up on the details? Nobody else does. But the obvious shit is just like, yep, nope, not didn’t see it.

Sheila M  1:07:31  

 Yeah. Yeah, happens all the time. Um, so how does your How does your intuition kind of come into play in your business now? 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:07:43  

Oh, client red flags. Like I have those down to a science. It’s, I can tell within minutes of talking with someone. Nope. You’re gonna cost me this much money. You’re gonna cost me this much time. This is not going to be a successful project. And I want no part of it. And now I have the guts to actually say that in the past. But now it’s like, you know what? We’re not for each other. Thank you move on. But I’ve also really this year been diving into my y, which is also a framework, I’m introducing to the wellspring. To really get clear on that, to even head off that at the pass like this. I don’t even get it now. Like, people don’t even approach me now. So I don’t know if it’s something I’m putting out there. Or if I’m doing remarketing, right, like, no snow for you. Yeah, and then move on. Yes.

Sheila M  1:08:43  

And you, you tested it, you did like a test of your whole process on me, which was really interesting. Because, again, and it’s funny how intuition works. Like I was doing all of this stuff that was in alignment with my why. I just didn’t know what my whyy was. But everything kind of like was circling around this one thing. And we had this whole conversation. And it was so eye opening to me, because it’s not again, the technology piece is amazing. And it’s super helpful. And like you said, it feels like insurance to my business. And the knowing my why was really interesting. And it was fascinating to me when you said like you’ve done all of this development over the years, and the people who were still in business who were still, you know, successful and doing other stuff, were the people who knew their why and kind of come back to it over and over and to me, now again, like you’re saying, it’s like the big stuff that you’re just like glazed over and I’m like, Ah, this is so important. Like how did I not? How did I not start out here? Like it is the undercurrent that runs under everything I do. And there is this GIF meme throughout everything. But I think I wasn’t noticing it so much.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:09:57  

It’s like that one layer maybe of intuition that you’re not tapped into. It’s like, I’m learning to feel it in my body. But I’ve maybe always known it in business. And it’s like, not really, because I’m just now like, oh, it took me this long to realize this is what I want to do when I grew up, but but at the same time, I’ve been doing everything I wanted to do when I grew up. Yeah. And I’ve been making the choices based on my God. To follow through on those, I always want to be a teacher. And I’ve always been in positions where I was teaching. You know, I’ve always want to be an architect. I’m in a position now where I’m building things. Yep. Right. And it’s there. We just maybe don’t tap into it the same way. Because it’s not the same box. Like I’m not building. My plan was to build a question and centers. I’m not doing that. But I’m still building something. Right? Yeah. And understanding that the Why is very much in your past illuminates the path that you’ve been on. It’s like, suddenly, you can see that light that thread and go, okay. When did it veer off? When did it fork? That’s when I didn’t listen to my gut. Yes. Okay, so when I got back on that path, that’s when I was listening to my gut. And if you listen to your gut the whole time, I’ve never met anybody that did it. Maybe Oprah, I don’t know. But if you follow your gut the whole time, you go on the path that you need to and want to. And that’s, to me that’s been over this past year, the fascination that I’ve had, and apparently, it’s a 12th house perfection thing. I’m just learning. Thank you, Diana. And it’s and it’s Yeah. And I, my mind went off that path as well. So you have to put me back on it. I tend to my brain goes in one direction, my mouth goes in another because I write right I most of the work that I do is through writing. And it’s why we’re a Slack channel for the wellspring because I have to I have to focus it into the written word. it I love it so much. And

Sheila M  1:12:16  

no, you’re we were just kind of talking about the why kind of running, running through everything and how it does. It really keeps you on track. I you know, it’s funny, like you were saying, Tanya, my friend, Tanya Gallagher, who is in Episode Two of the podcast, where like, she’s really the embodiment of the fool card, because she just has the ability to like surrender to all of these crazy things that I would have said no to Every single one, like an even l like being her friend, when she was going through a lot of these things. I was like, Are you crazy? Like, I was like, This is insane. You’re like that whole episode, if you haven’t listened to that episode you should listen through. And it’s a special kind of person like to be able to do that. Like I’m like, this is so in opposition to the wit to my temperament and the way that my personality is like, I just have such a hard time with this. I feel like now i have i’ve really evolved with that. And now I do have like, especially this year, and like if there’s, if there was every year that would turn everybody into the fool. It’s like 2020 because like, I mean, if you can’t surrender, you’re pretty much fucked this year.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:13:31  

Like you can’t you have to just be like, all right, this is what we’re doing. There is such a sweet release in surrendering. Sometimes it’s like, it’s hard to do. It’s so difficult to do, because I’m a control freak. I want to control every aspect. But then you get to the point, it’s like, I have no control over this.

Sheila M  1:13:56  

whether we think we have control or think we don’t have control, we have the same amount of control over everything. Like it doesn’t matter we always haveThe exact amount of control. I like that’s what I have to remind myself and I start getting like crazy because I do I can get like, I’m like I need to do this, this and this. You know what I mean? And then I’m like, Oh, yeah, stop that. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:14:17  

Yep. Doom scrolling all Yeah, yeah, no, I want to control.

Sheila M  1:14:24  

Okay, so this is really funny because I I always, um, I always pull cards from my deck. Like in the morning, some people it’s like, I feel like I have right away like, I just like get it, you know what I mean? And then some people I’m like, well, but they kind of do all of these. Like, even though the work is focused, they kind of do all of these different things. So I was I interviewed our friend scout a couple of weeks ago. And yeah, and when I went through, I was doing her thing I was like narrowing it down as I went. I was like, definitely all of these cards but I have to kind of narrow in, um, and especially when people do have like multiple things, you know, or have done multiple things. It can be, like very complicated to narrow it down. But I feel like I’m kind of coming around to it. And part of it, I think is. So when I talk about like what card you really embody, um, I love this. I have no idea how you’re gonna react to it, though. So the hanged one 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:15:19  

Really? Yes. Wow, that’s me. 

Sheila M  1:15:22  

Yeah, you know what I’m so okay, this is what I’m thinking with it. So okay, when I was pulling them out this morning, I was like, I really feel this because one of the things that has helped me a lot is having you as a person who is, you know, so an expert in tech, tell me, like, you’re saying, like, you don’t need a website, you know, right, you know, maybe you need this, maybe you need that tool. But you don’t necessarily need a website. And then when you have a website, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Like, it can write this, it’s more important, like the content that you’re putting on there, and that it’s easy to read, and that you can read it on mobile and on desktop, and all of that.

But what I think is really interesting is being in the wellspring, and working with you and just like talking to you about things. And that whole conversation about why was very much like shifted my perspective. And whenever I think of the hanged one, I really think of that sense of like being suspended and kind of like being in between and having that perspective shift, and adjusting to the perspective shift. And one of the things that I’ve seen as we have gone through this year, and being in your program from start to where it is now. And as it’s evolving, is, there’s always kind of work being done. But I do feel like you’re kind of holding yourself in suspension, and not like getting out ahead of yourself, you know what I mean? and being like, Hey, this is the work that I need to do in order to be ready for when I launched this again, which I’ll talk about in a few minutes. But, um, yes, but I do think that’s really interesting, because I really love this card. And sometimes when people when I pull it for people that are like, freaked out, and I’m like, I really love the hanged one because I do struggle sometimes even with what I do, where I spend a lot of time in, like other people’s perspective and like reading for other people. I can struggle to get that kind of perspective myself. And I feel like you are very analytical and you do that for other people. But I also feel like in a lot of ways you do it for yourself. Also. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:17:33  

I’m trying. I love it. That’s fascinating to me. Yeah. Because when I when I see the hand when it’s pause, I’m like wait , but to hear your perspective of it? It’s like, yeah. Oh, that’s fascinating. I love it.

Sheila M  1:17:50  

I read it that way, too. It really depends. And again, like I tell everybody, like,

Patty Ryan Lee  1:17:53  

it’s great. Yeah, it depends,

Sheila M  1:17:54  

like context of the reading and what other parts are coming up. You know, if I’m seeing like, the hand one, and the eight of wands reversed, like, I’m like, okay, that’s a pause, slow the hell down. Like, stop trying to do whatever, you know, but, and then the other card that really came up was the six of swords, which I think is really like fascinating, because at first I was like, why is this coming up? Um, and I can always trust like what’s coming up in the morning, because, as we were talking here, I, I see this card, I’m literally like, you’re always like, there’s a better way. Like, there’s a better way to do this. Hey, all you tech refugees. You know what I mean? Like, there’s a better way to do this, especially with what we were talking about today. I know, I promised that you would get the opportunity to bash on social media, and we haven’t even done that yet But I think it’s funny because like, from the very beginning, you were like, Ah, fuck, Facebook, fuck Instagram, do your own shit, you know. And I think like when it comes to the six of swords, it’s not just, okay, there’s this better way to do it, you’re like, here, there’s this better way to do this. Let me show you. Like, let me let me guide you towards this better way to do this. And you don’t need to know exactly where you’re going. But you need to have some parameters to start to narrow it down. And that’s what I always think about with the six of swords, and always brings that air energy as well. So So I always come

Patty Ryan Lee  1:19:28  

I was just wondering if there would be swords in there because it’s like, yeah,

Sheila M  1:19:32  

and you like and I think that’s what’s very funny because like, you are very cerebral and I can always kind of see you like working through it and, and having that perspective, which I think is so interesting. So does that resonate for you or what car do you kind of see yourself in?

Patty Ryan Lee  1:19:49  

I it changes day to day. It’s like you know, today I’m a knight of swords. It’s usually a sword because I live in my head. But no, I love that because it again it goes to teaching and guiding. That’s what I’d love to do. Yeah. And I encourage others to pause. I encourage others to really think things through. And I’m trying to embody that myself. It’s like, you know, if I can’t do it, how can I tell other people to do it?

Sheila M  1:20:19  

Yeah. And that’s what’s so interesting about about doing this, too, is like, some people and I have a lot of friends who read and a lot of the people I’ve had on our readers, and are always fascinated to see, like, Oh, I love people are externally seen and how they internally feel are like, often very different. And I think it’s true for me as well. Like, if I were to ask somebody else, which at some point, I’m going to, maybe for like, your anniversary, I think I’m gonna have somebody interview me. So we should all come back with a card.

Yes. Oh, my God.

It is funny too, because I think like, often, like we’re always our own worst critic, too. And so I think that sometimes having that like, outside perspective is very interesting. So, 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:21:05  

yes, in tech, I hear that a lot. It’s like, Oh, I’m tech illiterate. I’m this I’m that I’m like, this is a different language. This is a new skill. Tarot is the same thing. This is a whole other field. You’re gonna have a whole new perspective. I love this. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I love it. No, yeah. 

Sheila M  1:21:27  

So, I know that in the new year, you’re going to be so not for a little bit now. So after the holidays, you’re going to be reopening the wellspring – how can people? How can people stay in touch with you? How can they work with you? How can they stay on top of it if they heard this? And they’re like, Yes, I need that in my life. 

Patty Ryan Lee  1:21:47  

So if this point, when this goes on the air, I am on anti social kick. I will not be on social media from November 1 to December 31. And so the only place you’ll be able to get ahold of me is and sign up for the newsletter, because newsletter gets first dibs on everything I do. And if you want access to the framework as it’s in development, and workshops that I’m doing, you can join the fount tier right now. And get in on that that doesn’t have direct access to me is like an insurance policy. But I’m there once a month, and we’ll workshop something live and walk you through from point A to B to Zed. Yeah. Yeah. So

Sheila M  1:22:39  

I love that. And like I said, full endorsement. I’m not being paid, I pay Patty money. So I’m, I’m a huge fan of her work. And it has helped me immensely with my business. And also with my peace of mind this year. So thank you so much for taking the time too talk me tonight. This is so much fun. I mean, it’s always nice to talk to you.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:02  

But oh my gosh, we could talk for hours and hours. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. I know. Yeah. And yeah, hello to your audience. And yes. Oh, I have a freebie for your audience. It’s okay. Yeah, I can’t remember the URL for it, but it will be very well done.

Sheila M  1:23:18  

And I’ll put everything in the show notes as well. Yeah. So and what is the freebie

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:24  

It is 10 weeks of questions from the Tarot. So it’s Tuesday, I call it Tuesdays without Tarot. It’s my perspective on tarot readings. You get a question rather than asking one based on a card. And I don’t tell you what the card is. And you journal it. And it could be from a business perspective, personal perspective. But when you are your own personal brand, it’s probably for both.

Sheila M  1:23:48  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I’ll include that in the show notes of today’s episode. And thank you so much.

Patty Ryan Lee  1:23:55  

Hi. Oh, you’re very welcome. Thank you for having me. And anytime This was my first podcast, so much fun. Oh my god.

Sheila M  1:24:05  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review, and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Medium School

On episode 18 of Living Tarot, I have a conversation with one of my closest friends from “medium school”, Stephanie.  I had such a strong response when I posted on my Instagram asking if people were interested in stories from medium school so we wanted to share a little bit. This is a very conversational episode because we wanted to keep it casual.

  • We discuss some of the common misconceptions about communicating with spirit and how shows like Long Island Medium have really affected people’s expectations and understanding of mediumship
  • We talk about what it was like growing into our gifts.
  • We also discuss how being a medium actually looks and feels in daily life.
  • We talk about managing fear and anxiety and class and what it was like to walk into a room full of mediums for the first time.
  • Finally we tell some stories from the trenches of school.

This episode is a great reminder that humor is a great antidote to grief and an excellent companion to learning. It’s important not to take yourself too seriously

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, and energy healer and medium, and creator of practical Tarot for everyday intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the Tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition, and live intentionally with the Tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. I am so excited to be offering this bonus episode today all about mediumship school, featuring my friend Stephanie. Stephanie has chosen to keep her last name private On this episode, but is very excited to chat with me about our experience. The reason that she’s chosen to keep that private is just to keep things simple. And because she’s still in a corporate job wants to just protect her identity a little bit. So Stephanie is a PhD student and recruiter extraordinary by day, and a lover of all things spirit by night. Her mediumship gifts and sensing spirits have been around since she was a child. She rarely reads people unless in a class setting, or if they ask but never makes any guarantees. And she aspires to continue to develop these gifts and help people bridge between this life. And the next one. Stephanie is one of my best medium friends. I say that we don’t all know each other. I always like to say that, but I do have a couple friends who are mediums. And Stephanie is one of the first medium friends that I had. We met at medium school and I had such a strong response when I posted on my Instagram about talking about mediumship school. And later when I discussed it a little bit shortly on the podcast, I had a lot of questions come in how does it work? What did you do there? What was it like? And so I really wanted to do an episode that was very conversational. Where we both got to describe our experiences coming in both of us coming from very corporate, somewhat non believer type of backgrounds. And we really bonded over our experience because we both had similar styles of reading people and also had similar doubts about our abilities, and have really worked through a lot of them through class and through talking to each other, and having a lot of great conversations over the years. And this episode was so much fun to record. I had such a great time. I think we covered a lot of topics that you’ll find interesting.

We’ll talk a little bit about how I read for her. She read for me what it was like going into class for the first time, and what kind of skills we developed over time. So without further ado, let’s dive right in. 

All right, welcome, Steph. So today, I have my friend Stephanie from medium school, as we call it. Steph, can you give kind of an introduction to yourself? in your own words?

Stephanie  3:52  

Sure, absolutely. So hi, Sheila, thanks for having me, this is pretty cool to be able to do this. So as Sheila mentioned, we met at what we call medium school, which essentially is where people that are like us who have the ability to communicate with spirits are able to work together and learn different ways of communicating and also becoming a little bit more in tune with our skills. So my experience as a medium is not long, although I’ve had this experience or I’m sorry, I’ve had the skill my entire life. It’s something I think that I personally believe you’re born with it, but you have to develop it. And sometimes it’s stronger and other people than others. So for me, I think I’ve always had it but I was able to block it. Because for whatever reason, I don’t know why I blocked it. But then as I got older, probably in the past, I would say four to three to four years. It really came out very strongly. And now I’ve been developing At and have the ability now to, you know, read people’s spirits connect with the beyond I guess is the best way to explain it. So,

Sheila M  5:12  

yeah, so um, Steph and I met in class. And I was very relieved when I saw her for the first time because I was expecting to go in and have it be a bunch of very, like woo woo ladies and long flowing skirts and lots of bangles. And, you know, very eccentric personalities. And here she was this very, like corporate business like, woman, very, like high powered career person. And I was like,m Oh, it’s another like, quote unquote, normal person.

Stephanie  5:53  

Yes. Yes, I would. I would agree with that. Exactly. I think I have that exact vision that we were going to be like walking out in the backyard with our with no shoes on. And like hugging the trees. That’s what I was expecting. So it was a, it was very nice to see it as well, because I thought, well, thank god, she’s like a normal human being like myself.

Sheila M  6:12  

Yeah, I think that’s really why we why we gravitated towards each other in that class. And we were, if I remember, right, I don’t think we were in the first level together. I think it was level two, where we, because I changed which day of the week I was coming. And that’s when we met. Um, and when I talk about you, I’m like, Oh, my God, Steph is like one of the first people in my life who like really knew what was going on. Because when I went to class, it was the first people I could really talk to you about everything. Who got it, like everybody else could conceptualize it. And they’re like, yeah, okay, like, that makes sense, I guess. But when I would talk to you guys, you would be like, Oh, my God, totally. I totally know what you mean. And you just totally saw it from from start to finish.

Stephanie  7:03  

And it was really helpful for me to be has, I think that there were a couple people in my life that knew I had this, but a lot of my family didn’t know. And if I told people, they looked at me, like I was a crazy person. And then they would be like, do you see dead people now? And I’m like, No, I don’t see dead people now. Like, that’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works. So, you know, it’s not like I’m I’m on all the time. So being able to go to class and the EU was so amazing, because we had some more experiences, and then understood what each other was feeling and understood what we were going through that we really can’t explain to people who don’t have this ability. And it’s not because of a lack of maybe wanting to understand, but because you don’t have that experience. You can’t really explain it if to another person that haven’t had that experience.

Sheila M  7:53  

Yeah, yeah. And I. So I definitely had that experience. What was what was your first impression The first time you went into medium school?

Let’s just say that’s not what our teacher calls it. That’s

Stephanie  8:08  

No, it’s not. Right. It’s our it’s our little our little code for what we call it because it’s straight up what it is, right? Yeah. So I was honestly terrified. I did not know what I was going to get the first time I went, I thought, I’m driving over there thinking, Oh, my goodness, what am I doing? What What am I opening myself up to? And then I also thought, Well, what if I don’t get anything? What if I go here? And I’m the one who’s crazy, and I’m just hearing voices in my head or something? I don’t know. So I went over and I was really, really nervous about it. And of course, you know, our instructor, she’s so warm and kind and makes you feel so welcome. And her atmosphere, I think has that really positive vibe about it? And really, she took you from the very beginning. And you know, within about five minutes, I was thinking, Oh, this is not so bad. This is I like this and I would feel a lot more and I definitely felt more spiritually connected at her house than I have in other places. And I’m sure it’s because we’re focusing on it. And also because I’m around other people who were like minded so I think my first class is maybe like three or four other people I don’t know what that was, was or

Sheila M  9:29  

I think there were a couple more people in my because I feel like when I first went in I first of all was surprised how many people were there I think I had like more like eight or nine and I was like shocked that there were so many people

Stephanie  9:42  

yes, I think our second level class had a good amount of people like six or seven i think that that then I think we went further it went it got lower and lower

Sheila M  9:50  

and lower smaller. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I think and I had a lot of like the same fear. I think going in I was so freaked out and felt very out of control at that point that I was kind of willing to try anything. So like, I was going way out of my comfort zone because I was going by myself. I didn’t know anybody, like a friend of a friend had referred me. So I didn’t even know anyone who was like actively going at the time.

Stephanie  10:18  

Well, I found that I found her online. Like I literally googled medium schools Norristown area. And that’s how I found even I was even referred, I was just like, going to go to my friend Google and see what they told me. Oh, my God, I know. When I don’t

Sheila M  10:39  

know. I just found it on Google. No, it was a friend of a friend was like, Oh, you need to go see Connie, our teacher. And I was like, okay, and I, you know, I was like, I don’t really know what to think and, you know, walked into the house. And, you know, first of all, I was like, just, like, let myself in. Like, I was like, I was very, like, strict manners. Like, you wouldn’t just be letting yourself into somebody’s house. So I was like, a shift or, you know, but like, the signs outside and everything. And I was like, All right. So, um, I went in, and like I said, about, probably about half of the room was exactly what I expected. And the other half was, like, corporate people, like corporate people, and then one guy who write little old grandpa. And this is not what I like, immediately, I was like, This is not what I expected this to be at all. Right. And I agree, I, I felt very welcomed right away. I was worried. I think I like, I was like, Oh my gosh, they’re gonna like ask me to read and then they’re gonna be like, you’re not a real media.

Stephanie  11:44  

I had the same fear. I had the same exact fear. Because I was like, I will. Because again, Yes, exactly. That’s exactly how I felt. Because, you know, we’ve had this conversation before, where you, you feel you get what you feel, but then you think, am I right? Is this actually what’s happening? And then, when the person says, Oh, you’re right, you’re like, Oh, okay. All right. I got this. All right. But then it’s just that’s still, because I think the way we’re brought up and we’re trained, is that this is not the norm. Yeah. So you grow up thinking that only, you know, which is and really, except very eccentric people do this and can do this. And, you know, the realization is, is that there’s a lot more of us that are a little arm, quote, unquote, mainstream, I guess. Yeah. Then what? I think what you realize,

Sheila M  12:43  

yeah, and I think that’s what blew my mind as, as time went on. I mean, our last class there that we took together, I think there were only four of us in it. And all four of us were like, corporate people, like scientist, PhD student, yes. Like these, like very, like, yes, highly intellectual people, which isn’t to say that, like intuition is just for witchy people, it just was like, not at all what my impression was going in.

Stephanie  13:12  

I think you’re taught you’re taught. So like, you know, I’m, I’m a PhD student. So I’m very, I think through every single thing that I do every thing that I have that happens that goes through my mind, I think about it, and I analyze it. And I want it to make sense. And when you know, yellow and blue, don’t make green. You’re like, Huh, what’s going on here? So and it’s, you have to trust yourself and believe in yourself. And that’s really hard to do sometimes. Yeah. And it’s an unknown thing.

Sheila M  13:46  

Yeah, well, I feel like a lot of what we did in class was about building that trust in yourself. And also, like you said, this like unlearning, like unlearning, yeah, all of that stuff that’s like, I need outside validation in order for this, because that was actually really kind of discouraged. It was all like, yes, no answers, you know, just let the person know that they’re on the right track. And then like, you would finish the reading, and the person would be like, Oh, my God, I mean, what they tell you all this stuff, and you were like, Yes, I feel totally nuts. And I should have said this other thing, like, you know, and but it takes so much faith, I think, especially when you’re brand new, and you’re reading for someone else. It takes a lot of space.

Stephanie  14:29  

It does. And I think what’s even harder for me, and I might be jumping ahead a little bit. When I’m when I’m reading people that are not like us, right. So what I read other people, I really questioned myself, because a lot of times they’re skeptical anyway. Yeah. So the nice thing about reading somebody who is a medium or has the abilities or has the belief is that you trust that they’re not going to be like, well, why’d you say that? Why’d you do that? Well, of course, you know that my grandmother had brown hair, because you saw a picture of her from, you know, 1955. Well, you know, so it’s, I think it’s sometimes challenging when you read people that are not believers, because they, and again, like, to me, I always say, I don’t do this for any kind of glory or recognition. It’s, I feel that there’s a message that has to be brought to me, for that person. And I’m kind of that that conduit, I guess, yeah. Or mastering? Yeah, yes. I’m just kind of the translator, I guess, you know, instead of, you know, if I was in Spain, and I had to have a translator to speak to somebody who lives there, kind of same thing. Yeah. I’m like the translator from the spirit world to the earthly world.

Yeah. And like you said, I think that’s kind of a misconception sometimes that people have is this idea that like, it’s not like I was in there being like, yeah, Stephanie, you’re like, totally right. But like, because I have had that experience myself. When you would say something, I could start, like, my my brain is more relaxed too. And I’m not waiting to hear that one thing that’s going to convince me that it’s my grandma, because, like, I’ve seen you do things that I was like, holy shit. I can’t believe she’s doing this right now. And other things that are, you know, because we all have days, like every other job, where it’s just kind of like, Yeah, that makes sense. But it’s not like 100 like, it’s not 100% there, you know, and I think that, um,  I think that you do get like a different kind of environment when you’re in there. And we got so many different tools to use. And I think one of the reasons that we get along very well is because we have a similar reading style. And so we we have some of the same gifts. And so we had the same difficulty, like suspending reality, because neither of us particularly like sees like clairvoyant sees a little bit more now than when I began, for sure. But like, I know that neither of us had the experience of being like, oh, there’s just a spirit there that I physically see with my eyes, you know?

 and that’s, I think that’s one thing, I think is a big misconception is that people think that so if I’m reading you, they think that like, oh, grandma stand behind you, Grandma might be standing there, but I’m actually not seeing her specifically I am sensing her. I says, as you I believe, do I see them? In my mind? Yeah, almost like a dream sequence? Or? No, I don’t say imagination was that makes, it gives you the impression that I’m making it up. It’s not that it’s more of almost like a dream sequence or kind of when you’re a kid may say, close your eyes and pretend you’re at your favorite place. And yeah, it moves in your head. That’s kind of where I get it. So I put the person I mean, I see the person, but I don’t see them standing behind you. I see them in my brain. Yeah. And I also hear, I hear and it always comes from my left side. And that’s very, very strong when it’s coming in from my left side. And I feel that for sure. But it’s hearing it’s again, I think I have seen spirits twice, maybe three times. Yeah. And I have had dreams with people who have passed, and then that were very, very vivid. But again, maybe three or four times not a lot enough that I’ve remembered, you know enough that I’ve remember that and they were definitely the experience. I know that it was the person that came through to me, but to see somebody it’s not what I it’s just not the way it works for me. Yeah, but I know some people do see spirits, and we’ll see, you know, a whole person. So

Sheila M  18:59  

yeah, and we we definitely had a mix of people in class too, because some people could see and most people cannot, which I think is also one of the big misconceptions out there. I think everyone thinks that that means that you’re like literally seeing like a spirit or a ghost like standing right. I will say for me very few and far between and like you said, I will see it sometimes kind of like in my mind’s eye. Which is a lot of times if you’ve ever had a reading with me, I’ve probably had my eyes closed the whole time. Because I also am listening really hard to because I have a lot of clairaudience also,

Stephanie  19:36  

well read the same way because I close my eyes when I read it. I now do it. Yeah. And I also find when I read if I’m touching the person that I’m reading, I get such a much better reading than if I’m just across the room from them or, but that that touching of the person just adds an additional level of connection for me that. I don’t know if you have that or not, but it definitely is something for me that I’ve experienced what I have read people, if I’m touching them, I definitely feel it a lot more strongly than if I’m not.

Sheila M  20:10  

Yeah, I had I always have that impulse. Um, but I think we were, if I’m remembering, right, I think we were discouraged, I suppose.

Stephanie  20:19  

Yes, we were discouraged. from touching people. Yes. Yes. It was like a no touching thing. Like when you’re in kindergarten, don’t touch people. Yes. Yeah, no, I definitely remember.

Sheila M  20:29  

But yeah, I agree. Um, because that’s been my experience with with a couple times that that’s happened. So okay, so along with that, I know you kind of alluded to this, but you always have this gift, I guess we’ll call it. I’m just gonna call it a gift for like, I’m not saying yes or gifted. I’m just saying, you guys have the abilities

Stephanie  20:51  

to gift. Yes, I believe that I definitely have, but I never understood it. So when I was a little girl, I remember being afraid to go to certain places like we bought my parents side. Well, let’s start my family. When we moved into the house that my mom has now. I was a little girl. I was like six years old. And I was terrified to go upstairs by myself. Terrified, no idea why. Now mind you, my sister was three years old, she’d go anywhere in the house, never bothered her. But I would observe myself, I was absolutely petrified to go check on myself. And I’d not like to sleep by myself either. And my sister, I had her own bedrooms. And we probably shared a room until I was like seven or eight. Like do one of us would I would go to her and she will come into my room. And I don’t know what what it was right. I had no idea why I felt this way. I look back. And I think that there were, you know, there was something around me. That probably freightened mel, I don’t think it was a negative spirit. I don’t think there was any negative, I think it was an unknown. And being little I think that I didn’t understand. And I was afraid of it. And then at some point, I believe I blocked it. But looking back, I do believe that there were instances of life where I’ve had premonitions and intuition, things like that, that have happened that are not, you know, the norm that I think have to go along with with having this ability. So for example, the night that my father passed away, I had this very, very, very, very strong desire to call him. And I thought something terrible was going to happen. And, and I remember sitting there it was 10 o’clock at night. And it was a Thursday night and I thought, oh, he’ll be home tomorrow. You’re being ridiculous. Stephanie. What is wrong with you? Dad’s fine. He’s away for work. It’s not a big deal. Stop being ridiculous. And then 2 o’clock in the morning, my sister walks into my bedroom to come by that my father was dead. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I wish I had called ups. Of course, I have this regret that I had. Oh, yeah. Again, nothing that I could have done. I mean, there was nothing that I was going to do about it. You know, he had a massive heart attack. There was nothing I was going to do about it. Well, but I get that regret, right?

Sheila M  23:16  

Yeah, sure. Because I think this is another thing that happens, like everybody’s like, Oh, well, why wouldn’t you have just like called him like, what are you gonna do just like calm and be like, Oh, I feel like something weird is gonna, like, you know, exactly, you can’t like, I have a bad feeling. You know, and especially once people know that you have this gift, you can’t be like, Oh, I have a bad feeling about that. Then everybody’s like, well, what’s gonna happen?

Stephanie  23:39  

Oh, I’ll stay away from it. Well, funny story about that. So like fast forwarding on to life. Now. My, my older son knows that I that I do this. And I had said one time, I forget where we were. But I said I had to leave at a really bad headache. Because there was something that was not there was a spirit in the area that was not agreeing with me or something was not copacetic in my mind that I had to walk away. So he was broken hand moves in an apartment. And I went over there for dinner. And we had dinner and and they said, I do want to stay and I said you know what? I’m not feeling great. I really that headache. I’m gonna go home. He calls me 20 minutes later he goes, Mom, should I move out? Because you had a headache, should move. I said, No, I literally just have a headache. There’s nothing wrong. Are you shorts or anything bad in the apartment? I said no. As a good spirit. It’s a good vibe. There’s nothing there was I mean, the building? I felt nothing was there. Right. So yeah, it was just really funny because I you know, again, didn’t think that by me saying in one instance, I have a headache. I have to leave because of it. You know, because of those things going on. That I go to his apartment just again. had a long day at work. I was hired at a headache And he just went all of a sudden, mom. Oh, maybe should I move? So it was kind of funny. 

Sheila M  25:09  

That’s really funny. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you had the incident when your dad died. And other than that, have you had other things that that kind of tipped you off for?

Stephanie  25:22  

Yeah, so it was interesting. So that was definitely a big thing. And then I after my father had passed away him, we were very, very close. So I always felt his spirit around, especially soon after he passed away. I always felt the spirit. But you know, I just part of it was just me. I think part was me not was a not knowing about this, really. And that B was part of me thought maybe I really wanted to feel him there because it made me feel better, that he really wasn’t that far away. But you know, I could go on for days about like the fact the night that he passed away. My husband and I walked into our children’s bedroom. I was pregnant, my son, Nicholas, but I had my other two were little and they were in their rooms in their bedroom, and walked in. And my father was a very heavy smoker. And the room smelled like cigarettes. And my father had my my father had not been in my house for two weeks. So there was not any way shape or form that that could have been in that room. Plus, he never smoked inside my house. Nor would he have smoked my children him if he did, he would have never done it my children’s bedroom. Yeah. So you know, there was something like that where and even my husband felt that he said, the Steph your dad was here. And I said, I know. That was almost like, the way I felt was that he had to come see my child, my other two children. Before he, yeah, before he before he went before he went to heaven. I think that when he was crossing, I think he and my youngest son, cross like them, I think they cross paths when he my father crossed, I think, hey, am I and my infant unborn son had crossed paths because my youngest son is a lot of his tendencies. So 

Sheila M  27:16  

Oh, my God, I got goosebumps. I never knew that before. 

Stephanie  27:19  

I never told you that. Yeah, no. Yeah. So it was it was kind of cool. So again, so I’ve had so having that experience and being there and then again, when my children were little, you know, yeah, there would just be I just knew that my dad was around. Yeah. So but again, it was really a case of as I was tuning into, yeah, as I got older, I was actually dating somebody who has very, very strong medium skills. I mean, he can, he can, Spirit can walk from place to place, he can read people very well. And he actually sees he can see spirits sometimes, too. And he was the one who said something to me, and and he called me he says something, just something about who he is. And he says, Oh, you have abilities? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, whatever. Like, you’re crazy, whatever. And don’t think much about it. And then as I’m with him more, I’m starting to feel things. And you know, we were away one time and Williamsburg. And that’s a very, you know, historic place and also definitely haunted. A lot of things happen there. And there were some places where I could sense stuff going on, but I still didn’t quite understand what I was feeling. And then we were going into the governor’s mansion, and under the mansion, there’s like a is like a barn or something or horsetail. I forget what it was. But I started to walk there. And he grabbed me and said, Don’t you dare walk down there? And I was like, Okay. And he goes, it’s bad down there. Don’t go down there. And I said, Okay, so we went off. So that was my experience there. And then I had what kind of brought me to developing and learning more about this was his mother has very, very strong abilities as well. And I met her and her spirit and my spirit were very big spirits and very strong spirits. And the whole room was like, I thought it was going to explode. I was having this pain in my head. And it’s kind of what I explained when i when i read when I read I’m sorry,

Sheila M  29:34  

my ears ringing now – we joke about this, like you put two mediums in a room and then all of a sudden,

Stephanie  29:40  

Yes, I know. But you know, I know we’re in we’re on zoom. And it’s all the same thing, right? Yeah. So when I when I read people as I would have earlier I get this on my left side of my head. I feel like this really strong pressure like my head’s going to explode. Well, when I was in her apartment, I felt like the entire roll around was gonna explode. And she was acting really strange. And, you know, apparently what she can read in the past lives. And she’s really, really good at that. And, you know, john and her work communicating. And basically she said, Stephanie has was like a shaman or like, my background, I’m a Native American in my background. And she was getting all these images of like, medicine man, medicine woman, like an old college, almost an old soul, like a spiritual, Native American type. And it was just a very strong spirit. And her spirit was very strong, and Mysore is very strong, and in the room together, not expecting it, it was crazy when I laughed. I was like, What in the world just happened because I still didn’t understand what’s going on. Yeah, I just felt like, I honestly felt like my head was getting squeezed. And there was just so much going on around me. And from that point, that was where I said, I have to figure this out, I need to understand this. Because if I have this ability, I should first of all, try to understand it more and develop it more, because it really is a gift. And secondly, I need to be prepared, if I’m going into a situation where I might come in contact with another medium or another person who has different spiritual abilities, or I’m going to a very haunted place, knowing how to manage that. And understanding that, hey, maybe I can’t go into that room, because of x, y, and z, which has also happened to me as well. And now that I’m more aware of it, I understand it, and I almost prepare myself, if I go somewhere that’s haunted, or I’m going somewhere, that’s maybe an older house, I just put it in my mind like, okay, you need to be strong, you have to protect yourself. You have to be aware of its surroundings, and just kind of going with that attitude, which I think is helpful to me. Because even though there are places I will not walk into, yeah, at least I understand why rather than being like, I can’t go in there. And then people are like, well, what’s wrong with you? Yeah, and be like, well, something happened, but I’m not going in that room. You know? Yeah, yeah,

Sheila M  32:22  

exactly. Exactly. Ah, yeah, that’s so cool. I mean, it’s, it’s so different from my experience, but I can totally relate to, like, knowing that there’s something else going on that I’m not picking up on. Um, and I know, we’ve talked about that a lot. How, okay, so I do want to get into like some more specifics about school. But just because I always think this is like an interesting topic. But how did your How did your family react to it? I know, like, you and I talked a lot when all of this was going on, because I was very hesitant to tell people in my life about it. And you were very hesitant to tell people in your life about it. Yeah. And so what was that experience like?

Stephanie  33:07  

So it’s a mixed bag. So I have, not everybody knows, like, not everyone knows I can do this, I tend to tell people that I’m close with that I spend a lot of time with that. I have this ability, just because I say listen, something may happen, something may not happen, I don’t know. But I just wanna make you aware of it. So like I said, my older son, totally understand that. I understand that as best as he can. And he gets it. My daughter thinks I’m crazy. She’s like, whatever, Mom, you’re not, I don’t want to hear about it. I think my younger son is on the fence. His girlfriend is very spiritual. So she and I definitely kind of vibe on that in that sounds. So he kind of I think just as accepting of it, although I don’t think you can fully understand that. Yeah. You know, and I tell people, my family, I don’t talk about it a lot, because they don’t ask me and that’s a time Yeah. If I say something like, I’ll say something, and then I’ll get the Oh, there you go. You’re stopping all weird, or, oh, here’s, I’m just like, I’m not being weird. I’m just telling you how I’m feeling about situation. I don’t have to tell you. So I think it’s just a it’s just a it’s just a mixed experience. And I think the people who an audit a lot of people, but most people that I tell about, even if they’re not believers, they’re like, yeah, that’s kind of cool. And leave it at that. And I’ve had people say like, well, if somebody comes to you for me, let me know. And I’m like, Alright, no problem. So you know, and some people think they’ll get something and some people think they won’t, and then people who I’ve gotten things for that I never expected to and yeah, so it’s you know, definitely an interesting experience because it’s really what it’s not what I want. It’s what steer at once. It’s what’s Spirit wants to tell me.

Sheila M  35:02  

Yeah, and it’s not it doesn’t always make sense to us anyway. Like, it’s not for us to figure out, which is one of the hardest things to let go of for sure. 

Stephanie  35:12  

Yes, it is very hard because being a rational, and, you know, scientifically minded person at times, you know, I certainly appreciate the arts and history, but everything, everything to me has to make sense of it. Yeah, background, my first training is accounting. So debits have to equal credits. And, you know, it has to come up with a number or something has to be solved. And you can’t solve for this. This doesn’t have a rhyme or reason sometimes. And sometimes, you know, I think the one thing also that I interesting is that people you know, when you read somebody, they’ll say, I want my grandma to come through, I want my grandpa to come through I want my brother to come through. I can’t you know, as you know, we can’t promise that I don’t understand it come through. I can’t just I just can’t summon somebody to come. magically. I’m not magic. I can’t say Oh, Grandma, come on over and come talk to me. And I had some misconception about that is that we can because I think the show is like the john edwards and the low medium, which you see is so edited right down that they’re getting this but again, I’m sure that a lot of them either not walking through her neighborhood going Oh, look, there’s you know, someone says dead uncle and there’s someone says dead grandma. I mean, I couldn’t even imagine my my brain would explode. Exactly. You saw that. I’m sure theirs would too

Sheila M  36:29  

what People don’t realize is that like, first of all, there’s a certain amount of because one of the things we learned about and that I’m I’m very happy we were taught was about like ethics and not being in somebody else’s energy and somebody else’s business, you know what I mean? But I see that they think that that’s really just happening. And I’m like, No, some producer has gone in there first and said, Hey, would you be willing and you know, gotten permission from a couple people and then she sees who she’s gonna connect to like, right? It’s not like she’s just walking around day and night. Like, that’s crazy.

Stephanie  37:06  

Yeah, exhausting. stressful. I couldn’t even imagine I would. I couldn’t even imagine. Yeah, no, thank you. So um,

Sheila M  37:16  

what what are some of your your favorite things either that we did or some of your favorite memories or some of your moments from from medium school that you were like, holy shit, like that was crazy. 

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Stephanie  39:07  

so the one that was really cool was when we went and connected with our different spirit lab with our different spirit guides. Mm hmm and we were kind of going down into that that deeper trance and it was what I remember for me I’ll how this was for you. Yeah, but when it was okay, we’re gonna get your your your joy guide or your your camera hold on Oh, now your intellect guy like black door and then it would say Okay, now we’re gonna go to your like angels and I remember almost being like a step process and I remember as I went further into a more spiritual is the right word to use, but I’ll use that for lack of a better term to a more spiritual being or person. I remember feeling like I was almost not out of my body, but I wasn’t in my body. I felt like I was in this almost trance like state in a different place. Even though I was sitting, I was sitting on the floor. Yeah. Because I remember whenever we did this, I always want I want this on the floor, or whatever we did that exercise. I always wanted to sit on the floor, which I know some people sat on the chairs or wherever, but I always was on the floor. And we did that. And I guess I must have felt more grounded when we did that probably was able to connect better. So and I remember that. My two spirits that are like that, like at the angel level, I forgot about the loss of mother that the loss of mother came through. Mm hmm. And Padre Pio. Mm hmm. And my angel was Michael. And I just remember that being such a very amazing spiritual experience. Yeah. It was just I felt this overwhelming. Calm as I’m actually as we’re talking about this, I’m feeling that calmness. Yeah, I felt and it was, in some ways, justifying how I was feeling. But I could, I felt and felt loved and embraced by their, by the love that yeah, that they are because they are all loving beings. Right? So I remember feeling that very intense. Love. And I also had, I remember that I had Buddha was one of mine also, which I thought was so fascinating for me, because instead of just being all Christian, you know, it really goes back to the fact that we really all that everyone was spirit is all it’s just a good spirit. Right? It doesn’t matter whether you’re Christian or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Jewish, or whatever your or whatever you your religious beliefs are, that it was just this all good and kind of beautiful spirits that were around and a lot of peace. I remember even after we came out of that, at class, I just felt like that whole the whole room was just at this higher level of peacefulness, or understanding or higher level spirituality. I don’t remember exactly, but it just was this really amazing. For me, it was anyway, this really amazing feeling. And I don’t even know how else to explain it. But it was just this, just this really almost like blissfulness in a way.

Sheila M  42:56  


Stephanie  43:00  

That was one that really stood out to me. And the other one that also really stood out. That was really interesting. was the one time that I read you. And we had to use a do a picture.

Sheila M  43:12  

Oh my god, I was gonna bring this one up. Because this, this was right after we first met. It was one of the first class we did together. Yes. Yeah. Really asked to each other. Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie  43:24  

No, I hardly knew who you are.

Sheila M  43:26  

I think it was the first time you were reading me, I think.

Stephanie  43:29  

I think it might have been the first time I read you because I usually I just the way it worked out. And that was the early early class. But I remember I was reading you. And we had to bring a picture and you had a picture on your phone. And I’m thinking as I am going to screw this up, and I’m going to be so wrong. And I described Why don’t you tell them? What Why don’t you say? Oh my god. Yeah.

Sheila M  43:54  

So I saw I forgot to bring a physical picture. And, and our teacher was like, it’s fine. Just bring one up on your phone. And then you know, black the screen out. So there was it wasn’t like Stephanie could have seen through the envelope or anything like that, like the screen was locked. She didn’t know my passcode and she starts describing this picture of my grandmother that I had on the phone. And I mean, to her hair, her face, her eyes, and the sweater she was wearing and even like what she was doing in the picture. So much so that I was like, like really trying to stay like neutral when somebody is reading us, but I was having a really hard time not like freaking out because I was like holy shit and, and I was like almost laughing. And then you were like telling me I can’t remember exactly what the message was because I think I was like so stunned at that point. Because I’m still like, is this really happening all the time? And I say all the time if it wasn’t happening to me, I wouldn’t believe it. I mean, like, it is it is hard to believe sometimes. Um,

Stephanie  44:59  

yeah, we should Coming up blowing out a birthday cake birthday cake. Yeah, one birthday cake. Yeah, yes, I remember distinctly because I remember sitting there going, Okay, here’s what I’m getting. And let’s roll with this. And let’s see what happens. And then would you open that? Would you show me the picture? It was exactly what I saw in my head. Yeah, exactly what’s on my head?

Sheila M  45:19  

It was. It was crazy. And, and even down to what you had said, okay, because now I’m remembering a little bit of it. You said something like, you were talking about how she didn’t like to have her picture taken, which I was like, Oh, my God, it’s so true. there’s so few pictures of her. I had the hardest time finding one. And in the photo, I think she, if I’m remembering it, right, you said something about the fact that like she was sick in the photo, which you wouldn’t have known from looking at it. And I don’t even know if I don’t even know if like the family knew yet in the photo, but you said something about that, that I was like, holy shit. And then I had to like, check what year it was because I was like, I don’t remember what year this was taken. And it must have been like, right after she had been diagnosed with cancer. Because you got something from her. And then it was also like, something that she was thinking about my mom who was also like, off to the side in the photo. Mm hmm. Yes. And I was like, holy shit, it was so it was so crazy. And I was like I was and it’s not that I like didn’t believe it. It just is like, so spot on that I was like, startled. I was like, completely shook

Stephanie  46:37  

like, yeah, I Well, I was shocked too because I had never, that was the first time I ever read.

Sheila M  46:43  

I showed you the picture. Your face was like, priceless, because every single thing we did in class, you and I would look at each other and be like, this isn’t gonna work. Right? Exactly.

Stephanie  46:54  

Yeah, we’re like that, whatever.

Sheila M  46:55  

We’d be like, okay, Connie.

Stephanie  46:56  

Sure. We’ll do that. And if you want us to, surely we’ll do it. And then all of a sudden, boom, here we go. that exact picture. And I mean, I can I remember that picture today. I remember exactly what that picture looks like. And it just is so funny. Because I had honestly, I’d never done that before my life I had never Yeah, read like that. So that was such an interesting, and that was, for me, that was a really, it was such a good experience. Because I thought, okay, you can do this. Like, I like I couldn’t have guessed it was like we were friends of yours. And I was friends on Facebook. I saw your pictures. I mean, I knew nothing about you, except your name, basically. And that we went to class together. You know, I didn’t know a lot about you.

Sheila M  47:46  

Yeah, I didn’t even know. At that point. Yeah,

Stephanie  47:49  

I didn’t know yours either. So I knew very little bit about you. And to be able to, to be able to pick that up. was just so remarkable. And it really, it was exciting for me, because I thought okay, like, do you really can actually do this. This is just like your brain saying, I think I’m a museum. I think I can do this. Like it was like, Hey, you really can do this? Yeah, yeah, it was a really good, it was a really good. It was a really, really good experience for me from that perspective. Yeah. So and of course, your Of course, your your, your reaction was fantastic. Because Because when you open it, you’re like, look at that sounds like oh, my God,

Sheila M  48:34  

I was I was totally freaked me out. I was like, when she sees the photo, she’s gonna freak. Like, it’s like the exact photo. Yeah, that was that was wild. Um, one of the other ones that really stands out to me was, um, and we both again, had the same reaction, where neither of us really has that real visual, like or clairvoyance kind of thing. And so when we came in for one of like, the higher level courses, Connie was like, oh, we’re gonna read auras today. And you and I, like looked at each other. And we were like, oh, here’s Connie, again, making us do weird stuff we can’t do. We were like, that’s not gonna work. And she was like, No, we’re just gonna do it. You know, she was just very, like, casual about it. And, and we sat down and I was reading for one of our classmates. And I think I went first and I was like, I’m just gonna get this over with because it’s not gonna work, you know? Right. And she put our classmate in front of like, this little like whiteboard, basically, just so it’s like a neutral background. And, um, and then Connie sat next to me, and she was like, you know, just relax, you know, do do everything that you’ve, you’ve learned, you know, and just see what happens. And at first I was like, nothing happened. Nothing’s gonna happen. Like I was just like, I was telling myself all kinds of stories and then I started to see some Some stuff and I was like, That’s weird. And again, I don’t really, I would say don’t like, it’s still very hard for me to describe because I’m, I am aware of it. But I think I’m always physically seeing it. It’s very hard to describe. Yes, I trust me, I got you. But I started to see some stuff. And I was like, well, that’s strange. So first, I was seeing one of her guides standing on her left side, and I started, I started to describe what I was seeing. And then Connie was sitting next to me, and she would prompt me like to give a little more detail. So she would say, you know, what do you notice about her belt? Or what do you notice about her shoulders? Or like her hair or whatever? So she would tell me like something else that she would be like, yeah, yeah. And like as, as I went through, and like pointed, like, she would kind of tipped me off, basically. And then the part that was really freaky was on her other side, I was like, I don’t know what the heck this is. and Connie is always like, just say what you see, say, What do you see? And I was like, Alright, and I was like, I’m seeing one of those old timey, like hearing aid things where it’s basically just like a cone. And then it’s like, you know, it like goes out. And I was like, I don’t know what that’s about. I just know, it’s like one of those old timey hearing aid things. And then there was a man there. And so I started describing him and our classmate Barb was like, but like I said, we’re supposed to stay neutral. And her job was like, right, Lauren, she was like, Oh, my God. And finally, she was like, Can I tell her Can I tell her cuz she was. And she was like, Oh, my gosh, she’s like, first of all, I’m, I’m definitely in my right ear. I was born with like a birth defect. And I have an internal implant. She’s like, so you can’t see it, you wouldn’t know. And she also had like, real bushy hair. So I probably

Stephanie  51:49  

wouldn’t have known, right? Yeah.

Sheila M  51:51  

But she was like, Yeah, she said, the only reason I can hear is because I have like an implant in that ear. And she’s like, and not only that, she’s like the man that you described as the only other person in my family who has the same thing as my uncle. And she’s like, and I knew him. As soon as he started describing him, it was like, perfect. And I was like, What is happening? Like,

Stephanie  52:12  


Sheila M  52:13  

I was so shook, and I was like, I can’t believe I just saw stuff. And we, we, I think I called you on my way, driving home from that class that night. And I was like, That was crazy. Because the same thing happened to you, where you, like, started reading something. And you were like, how did that work?

Stephanie  52:29  

Yeah, it’s funny. Yeah. Yeah, it’s just, it’s a matter of, I think, having faith in yourself and having faith in your abilities, and letting go of what the societal norms are, or what, you know, America tells us or corporate America or the world tells us or even whatever, you know, it’s just having that belief, which is, it’s hard to let that go. But when it works, like, Oh, this was like, the best thing ever. I’m so good at this.

Sheila M  53:04  

It’s, it’s like it’s astonishing, and it’s so um, you know, it’s like, so healing for the other people. And we even had stuff in class where people would be like, crying, you know, what I mean? where it was, like, very emotional, and like, yeah, a big thing. And, and it was like, a relatively low key situ, you know, low stakes. It’s not like somebody was coming in and paying for reading, like, we were just reading or every once in a while, we would read another class because it would be people we didn’t know. Right.

Stephanie  53:34  

But yeah, yeah, there was no, there was no stakes at all that’s it too. I think that we had nothing. There was nothing to gain except normal. Except more knowledge. Yeah. And understanding. And also kind of laughing about I was thinking about how we know our each, other spirits now. Oh, yeah. There’s so many times. Like, I’d be like, Oh, yeah, your grandma’s here.

Sheila M  53:59  

Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we kind of felt like it was getting to the point where it was hard, because I was like, um, you really have to, like, I have a hard time reading for people that I know really well, because I have to turn off like thinking part of my brain. So if I have a friend or something who has somebody passed away, I can’t always do the reading if we’re close, because my like my own brain will interrupt it. Like it’s too hard to turn it off.

Stephanie  54:28  

So I have to say the same thing. Yeah. Where were we were totally at that point. Well, we can’t really tell anymore. We we basically told Connie, we can’t read each other anymore because I am getting because I think part of it too. I could be wrong. But I think that the spirits that surround you and this person that’s around me, like like my spirits know who you are, and your spirits know who I am. So like, Oh, it’s Stephanie. I want to just come in and talk to her for a minute. Until Sheila said hi and Hello. She’s doing great And this and that. And then it’s not really deep message. It’s just like, Hi, over here, what’s up, and you know that sometimes all the messages are, but I think that’s what we were getting a lot of because I had kind of gone through this whole, like, had the date messages had the, you know, you know, like, the different people that came through and, you know, it was just, you know, interesting, right that we got to that point that Yeah. What I know about you are your deceased relatives. For a while, obviously, it’s different now. But like, Yeah, when we were going to class, we all knew about our deceased relatives that was about it.

Sheila M  55:44  

Exactly. I know, it’s funny, because I didn’t even know half of the classes last names, you know, like, I couldn’t even look these people up if I wanted to. Um, but I think that was one of the things. Yeah, I think that’s kind of one of the the misconceptions. What, um, what misconceptions do you think are out there that you wish that people would know? or What do you wish people understood about mediumship? And, and I guess any, any work like this, Woody, I think,

Stephanie  56:15  

I think for one thing, I think that certainly, that’s kind of talked about this before is that it’s something that we can’t control what happens, we can’t control who comes through, you know, we’re not walking around the streets, seeing people everywhere, we’re not getting spirits all the time. But for me, I know, when I get a message for somebody, it’s important, and it’s an important message. And or the person just really wants to connect with that, that Spirit wants to connect with the person. And I think that one of the misconceptions is that a lot of mediums are doing it for also a greater gain or for recognition, or notoriety or whatever the case may be. But I think most of us are just normal people like kind of living their lives. And I’m, again, I have no gain, by telling you that your grandmother came through by telling you, it’s, you know, your uncle, or whoever it is, like I, in my heart of hearts, I believe that I am providing something to the spirit to give to the person I’m reading. Mm hmm. And then that’s all. And sometimes it’s an important message, as long as it’s not an important message, or maybe I shouldn’t say not important, it’s just not a revolutionary message or, you know, deep message. And I think that, you know, I think that also is that as many as as different as people are, mediums have different abilities. You know, we’ve kind of talked about this, like my my friend, Kristen, she sees people, she gets a lot of dreams, she has a lot of dream sequences, where she’ll have spirits come to her in a dream. I said, I’ve had that happen to me a handful of times, I can count it on one hand, how many times I’ve had spares company and dreams. And she’s had happened numerous times. And I think that that’s that understand is that everyone who has this ability at all develops differently. Yeah. And I think that we’re all we all read differently. And I remember one time in class, I continue in that class when we did that Facebook Live, yes, with that person. And we read that one person. And there was three or four of us. And we all got something different from this from this one person. Yeah. So again, and they were all valid, the person validated us all, if I remember correctly, that we all did validate that came through. But which was interesting, right? So we’re sitting there, you and me, and one or two other people, and we’re reading one person, and we got four different things. Mm hmm. So I think that’s something else to remember is that, for whatever reason, a spirit might connect with me in a better way that might connect with you. And vice versa. Yeah. And but I think that’s also kind of goes to just how people are different, and how people have different strengths and different abilities. And I think that even with with mediumship is, you know, I might read you and I look at your grandma, but then, you know, my friend Kristen could read you and she might get, you know, an uncle, you know, and we’re sitting together. So I think that’s something else to understand is that it’s not just a black and white. If you think about it, the way I look at it, is that, you know, we’re all here on this earth, but we’ve all come from, you know, we have ancestors, we have families and they go back really, really far. Yeah. And sometimes it’ll go back one generation as a mother might go back two or three or four generations. Yeah. So it just really depends. On the message, I think the conduit so whoever the person is, that’s when the reading and what spirits going to connect best to that person to get the message to the person is being read if that makes sense. Yeah,

Sheila M  1:00:16  

yeah, I totally do. I think one of the things I think I wish people knew is that it is, like, inappropriate to, to just like walk up to a stranger and like, give them a reading in the grocery store. Like, what you are seeing on Long Island medium, it’s not how it’s actually happening. And yes, I think like, people say that to me all the time. And I do, like you said, I have friends who have like, given me permission that if somebody shows up or something to let them know, but like, I also have, like, human rules with the spirits, as I like to say, like, um, it’s basically like, you know, don’t interrupt a conversation, you know, like, don’t be pushy, you know what I mean? Like, and also that I’m not just like walking around day and night reading people, because like we said before, that would be exhausting. And also, it’s just like, I boundaries, like, and self control. And it’s just, it’s not appropriate for me to read you if you haven’t given me permission, you know?

Stephanie  1:01:24  

Right. And I and I, also, you know, I also think about that is that when I’m walking through my life, I have other things on my mind. Yep. Besides what’s around somebody else, though, certainly, I’ve had experiences where I’ve been out. And I’ll be like, Whoa, that person’s got a strong spirit around them. Yeah, I don’t want to walk up and say, Hey, what’s up? I’m Stephanie, you don’t know who I am? You know, like, that’s it. I don’t do that. Although, you know, kind of something. I think I told you the story. When it was about six or six or eight months ago, now, when I was seeing gentleman, I was at his house. And I was sitting on his sofa. And I told him, I first went over there, I was like, Hey, listen, just a heads up, you can take this or leave this. I have this ability. I can send spirits. And then he was a good Yes, since anything here. And I said, I get like a very calming, calming thing here. It’s very calming, it’s good spirits, whatever. Well, one night I was sitting there, and the spirit that wanted to come through, was up in my business, and would not stop for like 10 minutes. And I sat there and I thought, okay, here’s your choice. You can either tell him What’s going on? And he might say, You’re crazy, and get the heck out of here. Or I could not tell him and have to leave. Because the spirit was so strong. I couldn’t even be in the same room anymore. Yeah. So so but again, I did, I did kind of come. So I did end up telling him and I said, Listen, you can think however you want about this. This is what just happened. I said, I believe the spirit is your mom. She is very strong spirit. She has a lot to say. If you don’t want me to read you totally fine. If you want me to, I will be happy to read you. But I don’t know what you’re gonna get. Mm hmm. So I ended up reading him. And it was a really pretty cool experience. But again, that was that. I had a little trepidation about that. Because again, I don’t like to do that. Yeah. But when you have a really strong spirit that comes through like that, and again, I had, you know, I did say, oh, let me know if someone ever shows up. And also like, already, be careful what you wish for. And that was kind of, you know, something that it was very, it was me getting out of my comfort zone a lot because I don’t like to just read people unsolicited, I guess is the best way to describe that.

Sheila M  1:04:13  

Yeah, but it does happen like that sometimes where there’s just like a very, I would say like people are how they were in life. So if you had a pushy family member or friends, they’re probably still a little pushy. So as I am, yes, yeah, actually, the first time I went to class at first time, I went to medium school, there was a woman who walked in and as soon as she walked in, I was like, Wooo, I was like, there’s like a really, really strong spirit with her that like really has something to say like, sometimes say, and when. And I like I again, I was not like reading her but I was like,there’s definitely and then later feeling it Yeah, I was like there’s someone very pushy And then when we went around and shared, she shared that her husband had passed away recently. And I was like, whoop there it is. Good enough. Well, let’s figure that one out. I knew there was something strong going on there. Yeah, so that was,

Stephanie  1:05:17  

yeah, but nice that you were in a like, but it’s nice when you’re in like an environment like that. Rather than like, I’ve also had my, my best friend son passed away a few years ago from my heroin overdose. And he has come to me like, three times, and literally came and like, came like, into my, into my bedroom and was like, basically standing next to my bed and was like, want to talk to me. I was like, Alright, Holly, what do you like, All right, here we go. Yeah, I’m like your mama. I’m like, your mom might not believe me. And he, she had to say what he had to say. And it was just an I was like, No one said, My girlfriend is she and she does. And she believes but I said, Jenny, you can believe me, or you cannot believe me. But here’s what happened. And I think it you know, it was good. But again, this is sort of ation where I I know her very, very well. Yeah, there’s that there’s that comfort level, I don’t think that our random spirit is just going to constantly anyway. Like that, although, who knows? Yeah.

Sheila M  1:06:21  

Yeah, yeah, I do think that’s interesting. What, um, what did we What did we learn in school that you found most helpful? Or, or that you wish you had known in the beginning?

Stephanie  1:06:35  

How to protect myself? Yeah, how to protect my stare at my aura to protect. When, you know, it’s that white light and grounding. And, and, you know, it was interesting whenever I would, you know, read things before, and they’d say, sending white light light, and white light and white light and love. I didn’t really understand what that meant. Yeah. And now I understand that, it’s that protection that is so important to be able to guard your own spirit, because I remember, I don’t know if you were in this class or not. We had a class where there was a woman who called in from like, Rhode Island, or New Hampshire, or somewhere somewhere in New England. And she was she had come to Connie, because she was trying to control she had spirits that would not leave her alone. They were just constantly at her in her house all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time. And Connie said you need to learn how to protect yourself. And she said, What do you mean? She said, you have to set boundaries, you have to protect yourself with white light. And she taught her how to do that. And, you know, the girls like how’s it gonna work or not? And cause like, trust me, it’s gonna work, just, you know, just do this. And, you know, she had called in for another class later, and did say that it helped tremendously. It hadn’t made it go away completely. But I think also, she had no boundaries with her spirits, because she did not know to make boundaries. You know, then she went to throw them up. And I guess the spirit of some of them were like, Okay, cool. And others were like, hey, you’ve been doing this with me all this time? Yeah, why can’t we do this anymore. So I’m hoping that she was able to, to use that. But it’s really been helpful for me, even when, you know, if I’m reading somebody, it really helps. For one thing, I think it helps get you in the right mindset of being in that, that spiritual level, and you kind of feel that warmth of that warmth around you. And I really do feel that I always feel when I call in the white light, or I call in the higher, you know, higher power, I do feel that warmth, I do feel that protection. I really do feel that and I also know that when I go somewhere, like if I go to like a haunted, like a haunted place or something that has that, that rumor of being haunted, or maybe an old house or an old building, I will protect myself before going in. Just because you don’t know. Yeah, it’s that unknown. So it has definitely helped me not to feel uncomfortable because I think prior to me understanding this, I would go into places and feel very uncomfortable, or almost, for lack of a better term a little squirrely. Yeah. And not understanding why I was so almost wanting to get out of my own skin. But now I know I understand that if you protect yourself, you can do that. And then even honestly, the one thing too that you know if I have a spirit that like is wanting to come talk to me for a reason. I’m like, okay, who are you? What do you want and if I don’t people coming to me, I’m like you need to go away. You need to come back tomorrow during during daytime not two o’clock in the morning. Yeah, and and put boundaries on that because again, I I don’t know if you but I think a lot of for myself, I do have spirits that do come to me. At night, sometimes it might be, you know, a friend of a friend, it could be a family member or someone that I am very close with, could my own family member, it could be my friend, and I’m the closest, it’s too I am I need to sleep, I understand that you don’t have to sleep at the spirit time. But in my land, you don’t need to sleep. So I have learned to do that where obviously, you know, five years ago, I wouldn’t have known about that. But I’m just saying that it’s good to have those boundaries and know how to just say, hey, you can’t do this. Yeah, and, and not be afraid to do that.

Sheila M  1:10:40  

Yeah, I feel the same way. And I think one of the things for me, that was a huge relief, because in the beginning, I was having a very hard time controlling it and just felt like my apartment was like Grand Central Station. For spirits like it just I it was a lot. And when I would do healing work, because I didn’t completely know how to turn it off. I knew how to protect the room that I was in, but I didn’t know how to completely turn it off. So sometimes it would just feel like there were like, a bunch of spirits like lined up outside the room. Like, I was, like, just aware of them being there, but not the right in the space. Right. So it was like a whole thing. So when, when we got in there and like the first thing we learned was how to protect ourselves and how to set rules. It completely changed my life. It was like that changed my life. And, and when she said, You know, this is your realm, like you’re in charge here, whether you’re scared or not, you’re in charge, and they’re just visiting. So like you can send them away, you can do all of this stuff. And over, like just from from that first couple classes where we learned about like, making your rules and everything. Like you said, that helped me a lot. And that’s when I set my like, human rules. Like there’s no lurking in the house like, right, how come or don’t interrupt people. For a while I was doing like spirit office hours, where I just do my meditation or whatever. But then I was like, it’s fine. If If you need me, like, once I kind of weeded out everyone.

you know, if if you know, me or my friends or if you’re like somehow an acquaintance of mine. Sure. Everybody else sorry. Like, yeah, unless you’re asking for somebody who’s yours, you don’t anyway. So um, that really helped me a lot. And I actually set a nobody in my bedroom at night thing because I’m like, I can’t relax. And I think like one of the misconceptions, I think that exists too is that it’s like scary and I would say it’s not as scary as it is startling, like as, like as startling as it would be if a person just walked into the room like it’s just yeah,

it’s like it like a jolt, you know what I mean? And it’s not really, it’s not really fear. But a lot of times if there is a spirit that is like really persistent, it will feel like anxiety to me, or like my heart’s racing a little bit. Or pressure, like you described where I feel like there’s like a little bit of like, pressure on my chest or in my head or something.

Stephanie  1:13:20  

Yeah, definitely. I think that that’s, it’s, it’s interesting, because I’ve had that similar like, you know, you have to set those rules because, and again, the thing was so funny, right, is that I think, wrongly, that I have no control over this. Mm hmm. But really, we have all we have all the control, we have the control, and being able to embrace that was really helpful. Although it is it was still kind of fun. I remember the night that you know, the first night that Polly came to my room. I was like, Oh my god, what do you want? Like, it’s like two o’clock in the morning. What do you want from me? And, of course, love him like my sons. I was like, What? No, of course, I’ll talk to you. But he does sometimes. I also have a tendency to get very, I talked to them, like they’re here. I trade I don’t treat them any differently than I do. A person that I know. And I think yeah, maybe misconception that you have to act a certain way or be a certain way. But they’re just it’s just the spirit of whomever you’re connecting with. The person was here, and now they’re not. But they don’t transiently change who they are. They still have that same personality. Yeah, for them in the same way. And I think that one thing people also shut down was that even if you don’t, you know, even if you don’t have medium abilities, or the abilities, you know, your family or your friends or your people you care about are around you, and they can hear you. So if you feel like you know, your father passed and you really miss him and it’s okay to say that in this view. And even if you can’t feel him, you know, he’s probably they’re hearing it.

Yeah, he’s definitely hearing and that’s one of the things that I thought was funny about when I, when I started doing readings for other people, which I’m not currently doing, I was asked to put that out there. And I’m not taking anybody on my waitlist right now. But, um, when I started doing readings for other people, like I would bring a spirit through and they would like, tell me to tell the spirit something that I’m like, No, they can hear you. You can, like they can hear everything you’re saying. And, and, and I think like some of the funnier things like my friends have been like, oh, we’ll do like, is like the spirit of my grandmother watching me have sex, you know, or like all these things. Oh, like, they have boundaries like you. Right? Right. Yeah, that’s why we have boundaries, you know, is to be like, don’t be in my room at night. You don’t need to be a part of that. 

Right. Exactly.

Sheila M  1:15:48  

And like, also, like, they just, you deserve privacy. And if you’ve set that boundary, I want to have privacy, like, you’re gonna have privacy, you know? And if you talk to them, they’re gonna be there. Like, same thing.

Stephanie  1:16:02  

Right? Right, you can understand even though again, you can summon them to the extent but again, I can’t necessarily some of them for you. But because some of them might not want to be seen or known. Or they could also be with somebody else or helping somebody else. Yeah. You know,

Sheila M  1:16:20  

sometimes there’s like a, like, a busy signal for lack of a better term.

Stephanie  1:16:26  

Yeah, like, I think I have, like I’ve had, you know, people that I’m close with friends, you know, like, I’ll say, Yeah, like your mom, spirit’s not here. I think she’s over with your dad, or, you know, she’s around, but she’s not here. You know, like, kind of that. I know, she’s in the neighborhood, or your dad’s in the neighborhood. But they’re not right here at the very second. Yeah, you know, yeah. So it’s kind of like we think about it like when your house. Yeah, like if you’re in your bedroom, and your mom and your your mom’s in the basement of the family room watching TV. Like you’re in the same house together, but you’re not like bright together. So that’s kind of how I would equivocate some of that is that, you know, I feel like, spirits have to look out for a lot of people, like, you know, my, you know, I always feel like my father’s always like, looking out for myself and my sister and my kids and my nephews and my mom and probably his brothers. And so I feel like he’s got a lot to do. So he’s like, again, in the neighborhood. And if something’s going sideways, he’s probably gonna show up. Yeah, but he’s just kind of like, checking it all out to make sure it’s good. I think a lot of these spirits do so. I mean, and, you know, people, you know, choose to believe it or not, but that’s what I really do believe is that they are kind of around and the summer not I think some have gone on to another level of, of their reality of their, of their spirituality. Yeah, that they might not be be here, you know?

Sheila M  1:17:57  

Yeah. Well, are there any other stories or anything from from class or from going to school or just from life that you want to share or talk about or anything that was like funny, or? I know, like, more often than not, we ended up like laughing in there. Because, like, again, people are how they were in life. And often there were like, very funny things happening.

Stephanie  1:18:21  

Yeah, so I have some many. Sometimes I can just like, I can run off things that happened. Goodness, whatever. The one time in class. Where was that little boy that was always on the steps. 

Sheila M  1:18:36  

Oh, my God. Yes. 

Stephanie  1:18:38  

That we all do was there. Like, like, it was hilarious. I thought that was just hilarious. Right. It was it was

Sheila M  1:18:45  

so funny, because I think what had happened was somebody got there early. One of our classmates, I think Jacqueline got there early. And when she came in, she you weren’t there yet. And it was just me and her and Connie. And she said something to Connie about about the little boy and this other person that were on the stairs? And she described them both. Yeah. And then we sat there and we did class, and you would come in and we did class or whatever. And then Jacqueline left, and somebody else left. And I was waiting to walk out with you. And you said something to Connie about the little boy and the other person on the stairs. And I was like, Yes. And Connie and I just like looked at each other. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, Yes.

Stephanie  1:19:27  

Like That was so fun. It really

Sheila M  1:19:28  

just happened. It was like a test case. It was so funny.

Stephanie  1:19:32  

And then the other thing that remember the one night we had class, and it was wild in there, there was so much going on. There was like it was just like it was like it was like a spirit party. And I remember that Connie goes every single one of you get on your stools and sit over there and don’t bother us. And I was like, it was

Sheila M  1:19:55  

 It was so funny

Stephanie  1:19:58  

and then they’ll and then the whole room changed.

Sheila M  1:20:00  

Yeah, because it was in that day, I was like, Oh, I was like, it’s like a, like a wave. You know what I mean? It would have we

Stephanie  1:20:08  

yeah Can we were all saying that and she just was like, like she was she was like the she was like the spirit police. She was like, You all can just go and sit over there and, and do not bother us. And if you are summoned you may come over. And that was that I was like, you go you tell them you tell them? Yeah, that was so crazy to me. Because I just weren’t thinking I was taking this little bit long night. That’s all I remember thinking was this will be a long night. like crazy in there. Yeah. Crazy in there.

Sheila M  1:20:42  

People underestimate how exhausting it can be to because even when you’re even when you’re, you know, following the rules, and you know, doing everything right, so to speak, um, and being safe. I’m I would still like text you the next day and be like, holy shit. I am so exhausted today. Like, I feel like I ran a marathon last night, you know?

Stephanie  1:21:05  

Yes, I remember coming out of there. And sometimes I’d be so tired. I would have to call somebody. I could like keep myself conscious. Wasn’t we talked on my mind the way home? 

Sheila M  1:21:16  

Yeah, we talked on the phone on the way home. like, Yeah, I was like, I was like, I’m really tired. And like, I feel like, or like, I just be like, like that. jewelry. nervous. tired. I know. I have to drive home but like, right, like, kind of like buzzing or something. Yeah.

Stephanie  1:21:32  

Yes. And on also, like not having a lot of people to talk to about it either, right?

Sheila M  1:21:36  

Yeah. We’d be like, holy shit. Did that just happen? 

Stephanie  1:21:40  

Can you believe that? Oh, my God, that’s just hot. Yeah,

Sheila M  1:21:42  

it was it was crazy. And I remember, one night You called me on the way home and you were like, Am I losing it? Like, did that just happen? Because that appeared even for us?

Stephanie  1:21:55  

Yeah, we had a few miles like that, where we were just like, like, if I hadn’t experienced that, I’d have been like, that actually didn’t happen. You’re lying to me. Yeah. And again, I sometimes wish that I had looked. I mean, I know we’re allowed to record or if we could have done it would have been like, it would have been like, so amazing to do that. Because just to go back and listen to some of the detail that people would have and readings and what they would come across. And yeah, so definitely, you know, just really, it was a great experience. And I’m, you know, I am anxious to when I finished my PhD. Get back into doing it more, because I really do enjoy doing it. Although it’s more for me, it’s like I do it for people that I that I know. And then I think I’m gonna add a value to them. Yeah. But it’s just it’s just also to me, it’s like, if I go somewhere that’s like an old building or historical I love being able to go into that place. And like kind of feel what happened. Yeah. And almost like, see what happens, see the history and see what’s going on. See whether it happened. It just is a really, it’s just a neat, a neat thing to have happen. And it’s just a neat experience. Yeah, like I mean, I still but I still even though I don’t read people often. I mean, I I had a spirit. I was went up to go to the bathroom on night. I was saying the hallway spirit passes right through me. And I was like, who I’ll even know who you are, like, what are you doing? Here? Yeah. And, and it was, I wasn’t home that night. I was, um, I walked back in the bedroom, and I was like, Alright, who are you? And what’s your deal? Like? Yeah, what was all about? So, I think the one thing also about spirits, I think, is that they are they still have a personality, right? So like, if they were like, if they were like a cautious person during life, they’re going to be a cost stare. And if they are a prankster on life, they’re going to be a prankster. And you know, in death if they’re boisterous in life, they’re gonna be boisterous. And you know, in their spirit, like it’s, again, intrinsically to they are they’re just, they’re just as a whole body of physical being person is not here anymore. But I think that’s the thing too, is that if, if you’re talking to you know, Grandma, she’s so Grandma, ah, and one that also that I learned that didn’t really real didn’t really resonate till it actually started happening is that, for me, anyway, people came through the way that I remember them, or the way that I know them, or if they came through for somebody else, it was the way they want to be remembered.

Sheila M  1:24:45  

Yeah, yeah. They don’t always look how they looked when asked Yes, a lot of times, especially women of a certain generation, like to look younger and like to look a little more put together and so often But I did notice that I would start to get like signaled about that too. Like, I feel like they’d be like, this isn’t what I looked like when I died. But I look good.

Stephanie  1:25:08  

yes they were trying to be like, they’re like, I remember I read some, but I did a reading. And it was someone’s mother, who passed it on and maybe 80 or something that I don’t hold, she lets me pass, but she came through in this whole like Audrey Hepburn thing. Yeah, like the hair and the and the pearls, the black dress, and was just, just was tight, you know, like, put together and was like, this is the way I remember, this is the way I like being this is, this is this is, you know, this is my, like, they kind of bring their best self out, you know, and I ever read a couple people like that, where it would be that old fashioned, because you knew because I know for me, when somebody who has passed comes through, but they don’t come through as they, as the person will remember them. I get almost like a black and white memory. I you know, I mean, like, I want to get that or not to but like it’s like a black and white like they, I see them but I see like a younger version. So it’s almost like this old. Like, I look at it as like my dad’s highschool picture. My mom’s High School picture. It’s not black and white. Yeah. Yeah, that’s

Sheila M  1:26:17  

That’s so interesting. I remember reading for you one time. And it was like a real lesson in like, like, just just say what they say don’t don’t translate, just say what’s coming up. And I’m like, all right. And I was reading this woman. Um, and again, I believe she was looking younger to me than she was when she passed. And so I was like, a little confused at first. And I was like, she’s saying it’s important that she’s wearing pink. And I was like, I don’t know what that means. And you were like, Oh, yeah, that’s my color for grandma. You were like, it’s my grandma. You’re like, I knew who it was, as soon as I like, started describing it. But first, I was like, it’s very confusing, because she looks young, but her clothes are kind of old fashioned. But you know what I mean? And then I was like, describing something about like her kitchen. And like, I was like describing this like, whole thing. And you were like, Yeah, I know exactly who it is. And I was like, oh my god. Um, yeah, yeah, I do think it’s funny, because, like, you were saying, we kind of got to know, like, get to know each other’s family members do. Yeah, so interesting. Because when I read for you the first time I think you’re ducking through the first time that I read for you. And I was like, confused, because I was like, she’s, she’s pretty young. I was like, this is really your dad. You know what I mean? Like, like, he was like, our, but I was like, really? Like she seems too young, um, and he didn’t seem like he seemed young. You know

Stephanie  1:26:17  

yesh he was, he was young when he passed

Sheila M  1:27:46  

yeah. And so I was like, I like I was going through, but like, his personality came through so strong. And I was like, Oh, he’s so sweet. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, Oh, yeah, how close they were. And like, it was like this whole thing. And I was like, Oh, that’s like, so while like, I wasn’t really trusting it at first, but like, again, like you said, it was like, just his personality, like, so strong. And I think that’s one of the strongest things. I think people watch the shows, and they’re looking for, like, a full physical description and all that stuff. But I’m like, it’s really more in the personality is what I learned from from going to class and everything.

Stephanie  1:28:23  

And it’s like, it’s like pieces of things like, like the perfect example the pink for my grandmother. And yeah, well, it actually just occurred to me why pink means grandmother to me. My dad’s mother. She wore a pink but she had a good a good dress for weddings and such. Yeah, it was a pink dress. It was all pink. Yeah. Um, so that is where and it just occurred to me why grandmother’s pink. Now again, my other grandmother did not have a pink dress. Yeah, but my dad’s mom had a pink dress. And that is what anytime someone’s grandma comes through. I see pink.

Sheila M  1:28:59  

Yeah, yeah. And that’s part of what we’re doing is basically like, creating this index, and this, like, spirit dictionary kind of thing.

Stephanie  1:29:09  

But It’s our own translation. Because Yeah, obviously pink does not mean grandmother to you. Right? But it does to me.

Sheila M  1:29:17  

I know. And that’s why I was like, This is so funny. And probably like, I’ve had a couple things like that, where I’m like, I don’t know what the heck this means. And I say it and the person’s like, I know what that means. Like, they know right away, like, exactly. I had a client and, um, and I was like to talk out loud to your dad at work. And she was like, like, her face. She was like, stunned and she was like, Can I do this? She was like, Oh my gosh, I was like, he talks back and she was like, her, like her face. She was like, Oh my gosh, she was like, I wasn’t like trusting it like, like she was like getting stuff and like not realizing and I think that’s I think that’s kind of one of the things that I want to say too. Everyone is really that, you know, you pick up on more than you think you do, even if you don’t consider yourself to be a medium or spiritual or whatever, um, you’re getting that sense of that person being in that chair, because I feel like, even when I’ve done readings for people, I’m validating stuff that they knew, you know, or that they felt and as soon as I say that, they’re like, Oh, my God. I think that’s kind of everything

I wanted to talk about. But thank you so much stuff for, for taking the time today, adding medium stuff with me. And I thought it would be a nice little Halloween bonus episode to talk about this a little bit, but I’m sure um, in the future when we’re out of quarantine and COVID season, we’ll have to do we’ll have to do another episode where we kind of go into some more specific stuff. Or maybe we’ll go on some spooky adventures and and bring some stories. So yeah, sure.

Stephanie  1:31:05  

No, absolutely. I anytime. I mean, I love this. I love this part of who I am. I guess again, I wish I had been doing this longer. And I wish I fully understood it. And I wish I was better than I am. Because I definitely know I had a lot to learn. But it’s been a really fantastic journey and have just been open to this has been really just great for me. Yeah. Thank you for having me on. Because this is just you know, again, gets talked about our weird security stuff that nobody ever cares about.

Sheila M  1:31:44  

Yeah, I know. I know. It’s just nice to have somebody as always to talk to you about it. So thank you so much. 

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Support Through Thresholds, Healing Guidance & Embodying The Lovers and The Empress with Scout Chavers

On episode 17 of Living Tarot, I interview my friend, Scout Chavers. Scout is an intuitive healer, generational doula and somatic guide in Austin, TX. She guides doula’s, healers and ethically non-monogamous lovers toward radical self acceptance, trust and love throughout transitions in their life through a trauma informed lens. Scout is passionate about alchemizing life experiences, emotions and our innate intuitive wisdom into empowerment and a deep sense of self trust – because she truly believes in rebirthing, reparenting and reclaiming our wellness as our birthright and as a form of activism. Scout’s resourced connection ushers various soul types through discomfort and creates a space for them to arrive to authenticity in their bodies to live WILD + AWAKE. Working with marginalized communities to ensure their birthright of awareness and wellness is truly ancestral work and at the cornerstone of Scout’s community engagement.

  • Scout and I discuss the complexity and exhaustion that she experiences showing up in the wellness community as a queer, black woman.
  • Scout speaks about how her activism has changed over the years.
  • We talk about what led her to doula work and how despite our best efforts at rebellion we are always brought home to our calling.
  • We discuss how intuition has shown up in her ability to be an intuitive healing guide and How she has taken it upon herself to take care of the caretakers in life.
  • We talk about the burden of perfectionism and how to take better care of yourself.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Connect with Scout:

Find scout Online at or on Instagram at

Join Scout for her next Soulful Self-Care Sunday:

Join the waitlist for Scout’s Doula Support Community here:

Donate to Scout’s Doula Support fund here: – *This money is strictly used to provide educational scholarships to BIPOC Doulas seeking mentorship and skillsets to help them support BIPOC families.

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. On today’s episode, it is my immense pleasure to interview my friend Scout Chavers. Scout is an intuitive healer, generational doula and somatic guide based in Austin, Texas. She guides doulas healers and ethical non monogamous lovers toward radical self acceptance, trust and love throughout transitions in their lives, and through a trauma informed lens. Scout is passionate about alkalizing life experiences, emotions, and our innate intuitive wisdom into empowerment and a deep sense of self trust, because she truly believes in rebirthing, reparenting and reclaiming our wellness as our birthright and as a form of activism. Scout’s resourced connections ushers various soul types through discomfort and creates space for them to arrive to authenticity in their bodies, and to live wild awake. Working with marginalized communities to ensure their birthright of awareness and wellness is truly ancestral work and at the cornerstone of Scout’s community engagement. Scout and I met in a business program earlier this year, and I was immediately drawn to her work, because it is such an important piece of community building is such and important piece of activism, the work that she does as a doula, and as a woman of color, to provide support and care. And usher people over these thresholds in life is really powerful. We have such a beautiful conversation about context switching, about showing up in the wellness world, as a black queer woman, and what that means to her, what it looks like for her on a daily basis. We also discuss her lineage and ancestry and how intuition was part of her birthright and the way that she was raised. We also discuss a little bit about how she embodies the lovers card, and also the Empress card. So without further ado, let’s dive right in. 

I’m so excited. And I have my friend Scout with me today. So can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Scout Chavers  3:26  

Yes, I’m so happy to be here with you first and foremost, because I love all the things that you do and just your perspective on all the things in the world in the space that you hold. But I like to consider myself just an overall intuitive healing guide. And that can look so many different ways to the world. Mainly my main main, main job and space that I hold is as as a doula and I’d like to consider myself a full spectrum doula. And that means just, you know, I consider that defined as ushering people through transition in their life and through discomfort. And that can look like birth, it can look like grief, it can look like joy, it can look like just transition in terms of their bodies. So that can that can take many, many, many forms. And so that right now, during COVID does still look like a lot of birth work. But it does look like a lot of trauma work as well, with people who, you know, are parents, people who aren’t parents, just people out in the world. So overall, I just really love to guide people towards their own intuition and guide people through their own healing in a in a journey of self trust and like self discovery.

Yeah. I love the way you said that too. And I love the way you talk about being a doula because I feel like there are so many things in our society that kind of get glazed over and in particular, when it comes to birth, which is kind of like your heaviest focus right now. That there is just kind of this, all this anticipation and nine months of of gestation and getting everything ready and having a baby shower and everybody talking about it and gender reveal parties, which I fucking hate. Yeah. And like all these things, and then you have the baby and all of a sudden, it’s just like, okay, like, you’re good, go back out into the world be a parent now. And there’s like, no real support. And it was only in the past couple years that I even knew, like being a doula was a job. And I was like, this is so important how I mean, I know how it skipped over – it’s white supremacy and the patriarchy. It’s so fascinating to me that we we skip over so many of those thresholds, and and we just kind of like, there’s so much anticipation, I mean, even like weddings, death, like all of these different things, and we just skip over that middle part. So what was it that really drew you to that space? And to wanting to do that type of work? Or what, what kind of compelled you into that?

Yeah, I think what compelled me is being able to hold space for the emotional part of the journey, which I feel like our culture ignores in all the things that you just stated. So yeah, like all of this preparation work of becoming a parent of being excited buying things, capitalism stuff, stuff, stuff. And then all of a sudden, there’s just nobody ushering anyone through the experience of like your life is about to change, your partnerships about to change your family dynamics are about to change your households about to change, your responsibilities are about to change your jobs about to change, like everything in your life is about to shift in so many transitions in our life, including becoming a parent, no matter if it’s your first, second or third, fourth time. So I mean, this lifestyle of being a caregiver in this way, and a space holder in this way was introduced to me through my lineage, this is what my mother did, this is what my grandmother did. So it was never a foreign concept to me. But my mother’s specifically, who I grew up with, obviously, my whole life, I didn’t really grow up living close to or with my grandmother at all. She worked in the medical field specifically. So she was in the hospital on the labor and delivery floors for a lot of her career. And I knew that I wanted to be a part of that. But I didn’t want to be a medical professional, I did not want to be in the healthcare system. That was something I had no interest in. So for a long time, even though I knew doulas were like a thing I didn’t really, I didn’t really see it as a space that I wanted to be in in terms of just birth or transition, I did my own rebellious thing for a while of, you know, going to art school thinking like, I’m not going to be like my parents and my family, you know, that whole young, thinking, you know, everything when you’re 20 Yeah, and then I, of course, eventually landed here, because we know, that’s how karma and energy works. But, um, so I think that what really got me here, in terms of just showing up, that’s what I really think it was, I took a long time to show up here. And what got me to show up was understanding that there was a huge emotional space that people weren’t paying attention to that there is an emotional space and just everything from moving your body to transitioning and moving in your life. And so I landed there originally through yoga through becoming a yoga teacher, a somatic guide, and learning about how trauma how energy gets stuck in the body, learning about all the different abilities mobilities that people have in their bodies, as well as modifications for abilities. And through that, I mean, it just felt like I was experiencing rebirth over and over and over again through people rediscovering just the sense of being in the four walls of their body. And so it just took one prenatal yoga teacher training, very early on in my yoga career for me to be to come to the realization and be in the realization that this is the space that I need to to exist in.

Sheila M  8:49  

Yeah, I love how you said that too. Because I think I had an experience that was very similar. And I, I had actually taken prenatal training and, like loved it, like I really like took to it. I love teaching it, I still love teaching it. Um, but I went to a class and it was literally one of those things that you kind of sign up for on a whim. And it was a two hour class on the pelvic floor, the female pelvic floor. And it taught here in the Philadelphia area by a woman named Deb Brownstein, who’s fabulous. And I was sitting in this room and there were like, probably about 40 women in the room, all different ages from like, very young, like early 20s to like 60s, I mean, and she just kind of opened up the room at the beginning and said, you know, how many of you have had children? How many of you haven’t? Um, then she was like, what’s the state of your pelvic floor and everybody was like, I mean, just like, done. And it was this whole conversation where these women who had given birth 40 years ago, had been dealing with back pain and chronic issues for literally 40 years from giving. Yeah, I was like, I am so angry, right now? Yeah. Like, I want to do something, I think there, there is definitely something about that. And I know that that’s a lot of what is driven your experience and wanting to be a full spectrum doula as well, because there are so many populations that are left behind. And in particular, for black women, for women of color,there is a completely different experience of the medical industrial birthing process than there is for white women. Can you speak to that a little bit about kind of what drew you in and how you knew that was really the work you were meant to do?

Scout Chavers  10:53  

Yeah, absolutely. I think that, first of all, love the pelvic floor story, because like, Yes, just cheers and snaps for all the pelvic floor health. Important, no matter how old you are, what life experiences have been. But I I definitely have been heavily rooted in social justice work just in every aspect of my life. I think just being specifically a black queer woman, there really was no running from that and everything that I do. So it has infiltrated every part of my life in a joyful way. So like that can sound really emotionally heavy to some people where it’s like, they hear social justice, and they immediately hear politics or they hear, like, oh, you’re listening to all the depressing things that might be happening in the world. But for me, it was really much like no, I really need to fight because there is a system in place here, that doesn’t seem to be making sense. And there are certain people that need to see that the table and a certain amount of people that need to be heard. And I discovered that very early, just growing up in a very academic environment. And also growing up in an environment where my parents taught me from home a lot of the time. So although I, although I grew up going to private schools, and like college academic, like college prep schools, my parents also taught me a whole different curriculum from home, especially when I was very young, like before the ages of 14, with just teaching me black history, teaching me things that they knew I wasn’t going to learn in school, and just also teaching me how the world worked, like teaching me a whole separate curriculum in terms of like, you know, being 12 years old and running around and being like a crazy kid with the rest of my friends. And my parents like mentioning things to me of like, Hey, you can go and be like a crazy child. But if the cops show up, it might be a little different for you then for your friends, and here’s why. And so, just starting to grow up with that education very early, I always had that mindset of like, things are different for different people and wanting to take up the space of in using my my loud voice, and my access, frankly, to help others. And I think that that access was not only created by the privilege that I had, of having parents who made it out of being incredibly poor, and made it into the middle class. They assimilated and infiltrated enough to be able to get me into those spaces. But also, the education that they provided me through academia allowed me to also be able to assimilate and be seen as like a token in the white community. And so what I mean by that is that because of the education I received, I speak a certain way, and I have the ability to code switch in a certain way, so that I am accepted by white culture, and I can make it into those white spaces, which means it is really my duty to clear the way and like fling the doors wide open for everyone else who deserves to be in those spaces that may not have had the same privilege and access that I have had to gain this level of code switching, which I consider a superpower.

Sheila M  13:49  

Yeah. 100%. And I, for anybody listening who doesn’t understand what code switching is, can you explain it to them? Yeah,

Scout Chavers  13:58  

yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, I realized that I’m joining back in on my visual for you, but you should be able to hear me from the sound. Yeah, so so code switching in general, and I’m gonna say this from my own my own perspective, and then also like, what I think it seen as on a larger scale and stage, but code switching is really just the ability to be able to, to, to lessen your proximity to whiteness, by being able to put on what I like to consider the costume of whiteness. So basically, how good or bad you are perceived or how accepted you are in the world is really measured on a scale of the proximity to whiteness. So, we have European beauty standards and our standard of academia, how smart you are, how educated you are, how professional you are, is in a proximity to how white you seem. And by white, I just mean that anything that is seen as a high level of energy education or a high level of cultural speaking, is seen as whiteness. So, because I know how to turn my Ebonics on and off, and because I know how what certain tones of voice I can use to be accepted in certain spaces, it has allowed me to show up in spaces and be accepted in spaces that other people of color, maybe would not have access to. I like to think of code switching is putting on a costume, I put on a costume so that I can keep every everyone who’s white around me as calm and complacent as possible, so that they’re not challenging me at every move, so that I can at least have a seat at the table. And most of the time, just even be able to listen to what is said, because it still doesn’t mean that I’m going to get the space to share or, you know, say anything directly. But code switching in general, I like to think of it as putting on an outfit and a costume. And it’s probably why a lot of people of color in your life, you might see them or perceive them as acting differently when they might be around their family, and around people and other people of color, then when they are at work.

Sheila M  16:07  

Yeah, and that I can’t even fathom how exhausting that much for all of you. I like truly, because I have seen it with friends of mine. And over the years. And I honestly, I like I can’t possibly imagine what it would be like, because it’s not my experience. But in just hearing so much from friends over the past six months, especially. You totally take for granted how much work is going into that at all times. And I truly I can’t imagine. So I think what you’re doing is, I think maybe underestimated by some people, in terms of the amount of work that it is to first of all show up and be able to switch back and forth. And also to how can I say, to also do the work of social justice and advocacy while you’re doing that, because that is already work that like you said you do joyfully but that doesn’t mean that it’s not hard work, or that it’s not heavy work at times, or like now in particular, that it’s not like truly just like soul crushing at times? 

Scout Chavers  17:35  

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I do agree with you. It’s just it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work of always knowing and being aware of what space you’re in, at what times and with who, and not being able to be fully embodied as yourself all the time, which is what it was just something that in the wellness community specifically, I’ve been trying to make apparent to a lot of amazing, non POC wellness workers that I know like in this land, and in this world to do a lot of embodiment work with people, a lot of self trust work a lot of very similar things that I do. And I try to explain why that space, why there needs to be space for black wellness workers, black healers to be in that space, specifically, because a lot of non POC and non black wellness workers don’t understand that trauma is a little bit different for us, and that we are constantly incurring and having to do more work than the average person just like walking around on the planet. And so when you’re talking about being fully embodied as yourself, there are a lot of people of color, there’s no spaces throughout the entire day where they get to be fully embodied in themselves. So when you’re talking about self discovery, and radical self trust, and all these things, that nuance is very, very different when you’re living in a world that might like murder you because of that. So it’s it’s very, very different.

Sheila M  18:49  

Yeah. And I think it’s so interesting, because there is very little research on racial trauma, the generational trauma that comes with it, the fact that from the time that you’re young, you are exposed to the stuff. So there are, there is a lot of research on you know, abuse, trauma for children, and the way that your brain develops differently. But I have to imagine that over the next few years, we’ll find even more research about how that affects Child Development, growth over time, your ability to not just like you said, like, like switch to keep yourself safe, but also the ways in which that trauma then presents itself in your daily life and your ability to connect with people or like you’re saying to show up in a way where you feel safe to be connected to someone in a relationship or to go out and on social media, for example, show up in the same way that say I can as a white woman, um, and I really do I appreciate I mean, I’ve told this offline. But I do appreciate the work that you’re doing. Because I do realize that comes at great personal cost, and exhaustion and also is very needed. And there is, there’s so much wisdom that you have to share and that you have shared. And I personally am very grateful, I encourage anybody listening, who is interested in this to follow Scout on Instagram, which we’ll talk about at the end and everything, but you really have this, you do have this beautiful way of speaking to things. And also, this is gonna be ridiculous. Your voice is like, like, ASMR to me, like I love your voice. I think it’s like so soothing. I was like, I just went out to record all of my meditations, you’re like really, like, firmly, like laying down the law. And also, being just like, with the most lovely voice, I’m like, this is like, this is exactly what I need. And you know what I mean. And I think I’m, I’m just I’m really grateful for you sharing that, because it is important to hear it from somebody who has had that experience. And I’ve had the experience this year of talking to female and queer friends of color, who are in the wellness community, who really don’t feel like there is space for them. And quite frankly, there’s plenty of white women here. We need some other perspectives, in my opinion, because I don’t always relate to those either. And I think that there, there’s a lot to be said, and I think everybody deserves that space, and to have somebody in that space, talking to them who has had a similar experience. And in my mind, the more diverse those spaces are, the better they’re going to be for everyone. And the more you’re going to meet everyone, because just the tiniest little bit of awareness. It, there’s no way that it doesn’t make everybody better, you know, and that’s frustrating to me, and going around and finding all these studios that are still very white. And very, like not even just like white, but like very thin white model, yoga teachers power yoga, that’s it like yeah, stripped of all of yoga’s essence. And so I’m I’m really grateful that there are so many people out there now who have been able to advocate and to really push and to get other voices out there. Because it is so important.

Scout Chavers  22:44  

Yeah, for sure. I agree. I think that. And that’s also kind of the note that I wanted to go back around to like the whole code switching thing is I think that, you know, this is generational work. We’ve been doing it for generations, and there are different methods that need to be used strategically at different times. And I think that for a long time like for me personally infiltrating was the answer. Like I mean, I that’s what I’ve spent all my life until now doing. I’m 31 I spent all of my 20s infiltrating of just like going to college, getting into spaces carving out a platform so that people would actually listen to me and now I’m at the point finally now where people are listening to me. And for me personally, my strategy is no longer infiltration, especially in the wellness world, it’s sort of just burn it all down. Um, I’ve tried to work at many yoga studios, I’ve worked at many, many, many there are no shortage here in Austin, and I there are many, many, many that I’ve been that have been the white, you know, power yoga, we only put people of color on our advertising randomly when we get called out about it. Studios and it does not work like I no matter how nice I am no matter how much I tried to suggest things, the core issues of how they’re training wellness teachers, how they’re training yoga teachers, how they’re treating their staff, the fact that you know, trans bodies don’t feel welcome in those spaces, people are still queuing and a gender normative what like it’s just it’s very, very interesting. But I am no longer I am no longer a team infiltrate when it comes to the wellness community. I am very much burn it down and stop giving those people money and start going to other yoga studios. Because they’re more than enough yoga studios in the entire world like there are more than enough. Stop giving them your money.

Yes, oh my gosh, I love everything about this. So with all this work that you’ve been doing and with your doula work, because this is an intuition podcast, and I know that a lot of what led you to that was you know that rebellion and then kind of magnetically being drawn back around to that. So what really drew you to because I know you read Tarot and you are an intuitive healer and you do have just such an intuitive. Like, I feel like you have such this way of speaking to people where they feel completely safe no matter what it is that you’re saying, and no matter what their experience is, which is like the true mark, to me of somebody who is like, kind of meant to be a healer, because because of the way you show up like that. So what really kind of turned you on or introduced you to intuition and divination and all of that work?

Yeah, I can say that I had a really long relationship with my intuition. Before I really knew what it was, which I think many of us do. I had an unconscious awareness of my intuition at a very young age. And I would say that that showed up for me as a sense of radical self trust with no data. So like that, that’s how that showed up for me as a child in terms of just me being very rebellious, and always asking why always under wanting to understand why certain systems were in place, because I was also taught very young, like, these systems are kind of bullshit. So like, as I’m taught that as a kid, then I’m looking around like, well, then why do we have to have been Why? Why are we doing this. So just having that sense of questioning at such a young age, I didn’t have any data that like I should trust myself versus what other people may be telling me in certain spaces, I had no data that that’s because as a kid, you just trust what the adults are telling you to do. And so having this radical sense of self trust of like, I’m not quite sure why I want to do this, but I’m just going to do it. And I’m not really sure why I feel more comfortable in this space versus this space, but I’m just going to trust myself and be in that space and just starting that with very little things. And then having those things grow and grow and be heftier heftier things and land land mines, I would say that would happen in my life, I just started to realize that there was an internal voice and an internal compass that I was following that I was trusting. And then I would also notice the moments that I didn’t trust it, and that I wouldn’t listen and how those things would, would work out. And so just realizing that I had a sense of radical self trust, when I had no data that trusting myself would actually work introduced me to my intuition. And then I was so curious about it, that I wanted to hone it and be more involved with it and get closer to it. So I just started to do that in terms of, you know, allowing myself to follow my joy. And not just joy as in like being happy all the time. But I should say, more fulfillment than joy. And just allowing myself to take chances and trust myself. So I would say that, that intuition sort of led me into the relationship of understanding that it was really radical self trust that it was at the bedrock of that. And that is where I try to lead other people towards, it’s just like, you’re gonna find your intuition, you’re going to find your gifts, you’re going to find all of that stuff. If you just lean into the self trust, if you lean into making sure that you’re listening on the inside before you listen on the outside. And that for me, came up heavily when I rediscovered Tarot and I say rediscover because it’s something that was in my life also in my lineage and seeing other people when I was young doing it, things like that didn’t also didn’t really interest me at that time. didn’t really understand or know, but then being called back to it in my 20s as I’m trying to discover myself being called like back to that home space of using divination tools. I was finding myself getting back into that childhood mode. It was like I started at age two, again, like just even with my tarot cards of being like, okay, I don’t know what this card means. Let me look it up in this book that some random person wrote and all the books are different, and they all say different things. And they’re not wanting to wanting to get to that place of like, but then what is right and what is wrong, you know what I mean? And allowing my rebellious voice. To be like, there is no right there is no wrong. And so then just landing back into that space of like, Oh, I’m just gonna trust myself, like, what is this saying to me, and really turning on your list your internal listening in a different way. Instead of being trained just to listen to what people are saying, You’re telling you we’re dictating for you to do, listening to your gut, listening to your soul listening on from the inside. And so I would say that divination sort of tested me to come back to that space when I thought that I had like, gotten that down, as all life lessons to it just shifts, shifts its perspective and then forces you to learn again, right? Up to that challenge. So I will say with that with Tarot and just divination in general discovering all the different ways that that that I could meet with my own magic and discovering that reclaiming my magic was something that was very important for my for my my personal trauma and for my ancestral trauma and for my lineage in general. It really allowed me to, to trust myself in a new way, and then also gave me a tool to help communicate with other people through readings, teaching others, things like that.

Sheila M  29:50  

Yeah. I love that. I’m gonna go back to two things that you said. So I love that you spoke to Intuition being more, you being more aware of it when it was wrong. Because I think there’s this thing that happens for people sometimes. And I know that it happened for me when when I was kind of learning all of this stuff that anytime when I wouldn’t listen, and I was like, why didn’t I just listen to that? Then I like somehow paired it up with my intuition is wrong, like, Oh, I was wrong about this. But I think what’s actually happening is like, anxiety gets the best of us, and especially when you do have trauma, and I imagine in your case, having to marry all of that up with each other. And then Hmm, so how was that for you? Like? Was it always like, okay, no, I just, I just got to come back to this, or did you have moments where you’re like, this is bullshit. What was that like for you? Yeah, 

Scout Chavers  30:51  

I really, I don’t think I ever got to the point where I thought it was bullshit. But I did not I did go through the bouts of not trusting myself and being like, Oh, did I just make a wrong decision. But when it came to the core of it, I really did realize that it was it was usually just a trauma response. That we get in the way of me listening to my intuition, or me acting accordingly. And the only way I could really identify that and pointing out pointed out was to do Shadow Work and discover my trauma responses. So that was in that was something that I very slowly did just just starting to discover patterns in my life, or discovering how I landed in certain spaces that I didn’t like, and realizing it was very similarly to how I learned landed in other spaces that I didn’t like, and other times in my life, and then just realizing like, Oh, so when you get scared, this is how you tend to react. And it usually doesn’t work out for you, if you if you act from that space of fear. And also just realizing that a lot of this culture, and I think this is true for all of us, but just as like a black woman, I think that I was saw this very early in my life, that this culture really expects us and wants us all to operate from a place of fear of like, but if I don’t, and just like a place of scarcity, there’s not enough later, I got to get it now. And if this is mine, and screw the other person, and I got to stay and be secure, and I can’t take a leap because I don’t trust myself. And so really, what was the jumping off point for me and really going inside and forcing myself to listen, there were two major things that happened one, my life slowed down completely. And two, I took a huge chance. And when I say slow down, what I mean by that is I in I enveloped myself in a lot of very tiny rituals. And of course, I don’t have time to just like quit my job and like be doing tiny rituals all day. But I decided to make changes in my life that would allow me to do that I knew that I needed to immerse myself in a space that would be quiet. And that would allow me to think and that would allow me to do little mundane things that I could spiritually energetically put my energy into and get something back. And that I knew I needed to make a big leap and make a change in my life and stop giving energy to the toxic things that I said I didn’t like so for me what that looked like was after art school, I was gainfully employed as a designer, in marketing for years. And I was very lucky that I got that job because of course, I graduated school with a bunch of student loans. So the semester before I graduated, I was very grateful to be one of the people that already had had a job. And I was miserable. absolutely miserable, working. I mean, I was in advertising working all hours. And it just being an expectation of like, Oh, well, you know, you’re young and this is just the expectation you need to like earn your keep and just all of these all of these, like no, just me. Yeah, I’m like is this the way this is supposed to be like I’m oh is this we’re just supposed to be miserable like this forever. I was just very confused. Um, and so I just decided when I mean I took a huge pay cut, probably biggest pick out of my whole life. And I started nannying, which I hadn’t done since like high school and the beginning of college. And I, which allowed me to be with small children who teach you a lot and require tons of patience. And I also started working at the front desk of the yoga studio that I desired to go to yoga school at so that I could, you know, earn some keep and start going to yoga school. So it allowed me to I mean, yes, it was stressful. I’m not going to pretend like this was like just all sunshine and rainbows like I was making no money. And I was working a lot. But it allowed me to have slowness in my day where I felt like I was being usually being stuck in a cog in a system. It allowed me to really analyze where I was putting my energy. It allowed me to immerse myself in the wellness community, which I never had the opportunity to do when I was working all hours of the day. And so I just decided to take a big leap and make a big change and follow my intuition. And it honestly is like what led up to everything I’m doing now I wouldn’t take that back for the world. So it was really coming back to that place of self trust and putting my money where my mouth was when it came to changing my life. That started me off on that foot.

Yeah. I love I love that. I really do. And I like that you spoke to that. Like even though you knew it was right, it was still challenging. Because that’s one of the themes that I’ve been seeing come up for a lot of people and one of the things that I think is like instagrammable. And that happens a lot again and like the wellness space right now is like, if something is right then it is easy. And it is not. It’s not at all. Like you can know in your heart in your body and your mind in like all of you that it’s the right thing. And it can still be just like brutal to make that change. And I love that you spoke to that a little bit. I’m going back just to one more thing, but that I want us to ask about too, because I’m so fascinated by this personally. You are a triple Virgo Am I remember that right?

Yes. So in Vedic astrology, which is usually what i what i what i read, I don’t have a lot of knowledge in western astrology. But in Vedic astrology, I am a triple Virgo. And in western astrology, I am a triple Libra. So 

Sheila M  36:01  

Oh my god. Yeah. That is so funny. Because I was like, how does that go with like, divination and everything, both of them really honestly, like in traditional or, or Vedic? Like, how does that work? When you’re like, kind of in the like, this kind of grounded place to be trying to like bring all of this intuitive stuff down. I mean, I think it’s probably part of what makes you such a clear communicator about it. Because one of the things I think is most challenging is taking these kind of like, it’s not always like a sentence, right? It’s like a blob of stuff. And you have to like, pass it through you. And sometimes it like comes out and I’m like, oh, Sheila, that just was not that was not eloquent at all, that was not cute. But whenever whenever you’re like speaking to these things, and when you write stuff up the about the Tarot and all these different things, I’m like, Oh, my God, like yes, like that? Is it? Like, I’ve struggled so much to get that exact, like feeling out, and it just does not come out that way. So how do you think that your astrology has kind of influenced your ability in this work? Because I can imagine that it would bring both strengths and challenges there.

Scout Chavers  37:22  

Yeah, for sure. I mean, especially in my Virgo. I mean, the biggest challenge of that, for me, for my Virgo, and for my Libra is the fact that I always want to see both sides of everything, which sometimes will leave me at a standstill. But also I want to be a perfectionist, that everything which there’s no perfectionism in the work of embodiment, and the work of divination, like there is no room for that. So that’s a huge personal project in terms of just letting that go. But I do agree with what you said about like being in that airy, like breathy space of intuitiveness, which is like super all up in your brain like flying high up in the clouds and then needing that grounding aspect to be like, how do I communicate this on the earth now like to other humans, I feel like they’re my a lot of my grounding energy is always like very much in the human form. I really, really, I like to think of myself as someone who enjoys the human experience. That’s something I learned very early in a lot of my yogic philosophy studies is that you know, I am not this like existentialist like let’s go out to the woods, and live minimally with nothing and be spiritual and meditate under a tree like that is not where I live. I live in the space of like, Oh, no, we’re humans, like, I am in the mess, I am in the mud, I am in the imperfection, I am in all the feelings. And I like to ascend into that space, and, and grab those downloads from the universe. I like to channel like you were kind of talking about and be able to communicate them. But I am very much rooted in the fact that like, Hey, we’re all human. And let’s try to put this into words that that humans understand which i think that that part comes a little naturally to me, I think. I don’t realize that I’m putting it in a very specific way. That is, it’s nice that it is heard by so many different people. I think that’s a gift that I didn’t realize that I had. But I really am heavily rooted in the human experience with all my earthiness. I am not very I’m not very airy in my mind at all. I’m not not at all.

Sheila M  39:19  

Yeah, I think it’s so interesting, because I was I had a conversation with our friends Ash, where we talked about this a little bit and I was saying cuz um, they and I are both heavy fire charts like both of us have very heavy fire charts. And when we were talking about it, I was saying, the challenge for me like you’re saying is always to remove my ego from it like I have. My sun is in Leo and my rising sign Sagittarius. And what I think comes from the Leo a lot is this like, it’s not really people pleasing. But like, I want to be good, I want to be good at everything. And so it was hard for me in the beginning to take my ego out of it. But really, ultimately, what makes you a better healer and a better space holder is having that kind of completely removed and not being attached to the outcome. So it wasn’t like I wanted people, when I say ego wasn’t like, I wanted people to be like, Oh my gosh, you’re the best. Like, that’s not Yeah, I get the reputation that leos gets. It was more like, this person is paying me for a healing session. And so I feel like I need to solve like, I need to fix this thing. Or else they will feel like they have not gotten the experience that they paid for. And so I was like, very  in the beginning attached to that. And luckily, one of my teachers, and my Reiki teacher had a conversation with me and was basically like, that’s not how energy works. Like you can’t force it into submission, heavy fire chart -stop soing that. Yeah.

Scout Chavers  41:06  

Like, yeah, you can’t make it do that. It’s like trying to control flowing water you’re like, but why

Sheila M  41:14  

I can just will this to happen? I’ve done a lot of things. And, yeah, so I’m like, well, this must also be something I must do with brute force, you know. And so it was such a revelation for me when I took that out. And now I feel like the challenge that I am presented with, and you can’t tell me if this is similar with some of the work that you do, but is translating that over to other people. So having conversations, whether it is online, in my social space on here, with my clients, or on like my, you know, my offerings page, where I’m explaining to people that I’m not going to, like solve this for them, or fix them, or, or give them all the answers with the Tarot like it, my opinion is not that relevant. And what it’s really about is holding space for that person to heal themselves in a way that is safe and feels comfortable to them. And we’re holding the space for the person to actually step away from their life and be able to reflect on what they actually want. When we;re doing like a tarot reading, like what is going on? And yes, what have you been so like, anxious and hung up on that you can’t see clearly because the second that we start to have a conversation. Um, I can hear it almost right away. And and yeah, I don’t, – I don’t need the cards. It was really funny. I had a reading with a woman really early on, and she was like, Oh, you don’t need those cards. You can put them away. And I was like, Yeah, but it freaks people out. Last one. I have. Yeah.

Scout Chavers  42:54  

It’s a comfort tool. Really, for everyone else.

Like, you know, people like to have something to look at because it’s I think like we are at different levels of being able to suspend reality, right? Yeah. Like, people come in and I get a lot of people who are first time everything so this is my friend getting energy, right? This is my first time with a tarot reading. I don’t really know what I think about this, you know, I’m yeah, I’m on the fence and I don’t really understand what’s asked, you know, things like that. And I think one of the things that is really hard is removing that ego and just kind of allowing things to flow. Because as you know how you described it, the more you try to get involved, when you’re talking about channeling and everything else, the foggier the message will be like the higher Yeah,

Oh, yeah. Cuz then you’re not paying attention to what’s actually important. You’re paying attention, like what you need, you’re paying attention to you. And really, it’s just like, you have no part in this. And this was actually so so I kind of heard your question in three different parts. So I want to like I want to want to answer it in three different ways. First, I heard you know, the aspect of like, I really feel like I need to be solving something for people to in order to feel worthy to be doing this work. And this is a huge reason why I don’t call myself a healer as much like I do I do in my bio because when I sometimes healing guide is just too many words. And so sometimes I will say healer, but when people ask me, I always say healing guide, because I like to guide people in their own healing, I’m not going to heal you. I’m not a healer, I have the power to open up the channels for you, but I’m not going to heal you in any way. I’m not I’m not going to be magic for you in that way. But what I want you to do is be able to find your own path to healing with me and for me to be able to light that that way. So and I think that the the core issue that I have found in my practices of people coming to me with that expectation is one let’s chat about why you are always looking to grab something outside of you to fix your shit. Let’s talk about that. Because that’s true with everything. Like I’m having a little bit of a headache. Let me call the doctor and it’s like, hold on how much water Have you had today? What have you been eating lately, like, let’s start, let’s like, let’s self assess, you know, before we immediately start reaching out to people who we consider more qualified than us, because in reality, I am no more qualified than you, I have just done studies in certain spaces that you have not done studies in because you were busy doing your own things in your own life. So in order for like efficiency sake, in this human experience, you come to me someone who has been doing studies in this space to help Usher you through this, but it’s not like I have some grand knowledge that only I can get. And you have to come to me to get it. And it’s that’s also like that, you know, each one teach one anybody who likes to give you the impression that they are the guru and your medicine, you probably should steer away from and go somewhere else. But I sort of got that feedback from spiritual teachers as well, when I was going through that. And a big part of my career where I saw that was actually even a personal thing. It was actually when I was like getting divorced. I was married for I was with my ex husband for 10 years. And we were married for four. And as our marriage was starting to like deteriorate a little bit due to some some health things, mental health management things and lifestyle differences as we grew up, I really did not like the idea of like abandoning him or feeling like I was abandoning him, when I knew that we were not going to work out. And I, you know, went to my spiritual teachers and got a couple of readings and things like that, and they know how to speak to me. In the way that I need to be spoken to is a Virgo, which is usually a little harsher than some people. I really like that I like a little tough love, you know what I mean? Like I like for someone to get real with me. And one of my teachers was just like, Who the hell are you to fix anything for anybody? Like, and who are you to do that, that is not your job. And you’re also robbing them of the opportunity and experience of learning how to fix and heal themselves. So like, basically looking at me and being like, Fuck off, like, get out of get out of their process, get out of that process. And I was like, Oh, I I needed that. Like it just it gave me liberation, because then I actually freed myself of the pressure of being like, Oh, I don’t even I don’t have to save everyone, like I was just so confused. Like, you save everyone. And they’re like, No, you are doing them a disservice. And you’re also creating a karmic tie with them that they don’t need, because then their whole their karma, and their energy is going to feel indebted to you even possibly in future lives. And you didn’t even need to be involved in that that’s not your work. That’s not your job. Like, you know, it’s almost like but out and I needed that I needed that reassurance. And one of my teachers, she likes to say don’t sell water by the river. That’s what she always says she’s like, stop doing that you are not the solution. You everybody has their own path, how you got to the river is not how the other person’s going to get to the river. So don’t try to lead them down your same path. Just be the light, just be the light. And so I took that to heart. And that’s really when I started to shift that perspective. But I also think that what you were mentioning for healers, and for you know, healing guides, and for anybody who works in the wellness space, in the divination, space in the magic space, whatever people like to refer to it as, that’s what leads to a lot of perfection paralysis. And that’s what leads me personally to working with a lot of people. And most of my work with them is like, Can you just please go out into the world and do your work because the world needs you. And you’re too busy over here thinking that you’re not good enough yet. It leads to the thought process of like, I need to be perfect in order to help someone else. I can’t help someone else with their relationship if my relationship isn’t going perfectly. I can’t read cards for somebody if I tried to read my own cards this morning, and nothing was coming through. And it’s like none of those things are true. None of those things are true. We don’t need you perfect. We don’t need anybody perfect because that’s a disservice. Like we The world needs you with all your messiness and all your mistakes The world needs to see you mess up the world needs to see how you react when you mess up. Like we need all those things. And if we’re all stuck in this space of like I need to be perfect in order to help someone else and then I need to wait for them to be perfect so they can go help someone else we will never get anywhere. And so for the biggest part of that that I want people to take away if they’re listening is like the world needs you at your most imperfect period like full stop.

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Sheila M  51:01  

Yes, oh my gosh, I love that so much. Because I think there is this thing that happens where especially when people are new, where they do feel that obligation, and it is born out of being told our entire lives, that wisdom is outside of us. You go to school and you learn from someone else, you go to church, and you learn from someone else, and everything has to pass. All wisdom has to pass through somebody else before it comes to you. And this is so much about giving that back to people. And I love what you said about not liking the word healer, I find that I don’t like any of the words. I don’t like any of the words I’m like, don’t put me in a box. I will be no I am an original don’t put me in a box. But it’s also like you said I’m like I don’t really feel like a healer. I don’t really feel like a medium. I don’t like I don’t really feel like any of these things. All of these things are are things that I help facilitate. Sure, you know, but I think I love how you said like guide. And I agree, I feel like everywhere that I go, I have to like shorten everything up. And I’m like, this is not as succinct as I would like it to be. I always wish that there was a different word for it. Like in particular, like medium, like I’ve always hated the word medium. I hate it. I guess I just, I never liked it, there’s no good way to describe it. Yeah, I also just feel like even from the very beginning with that, I never felt like that was the main thing. I think it is to facilitate something else that I haven’t quite figured out yet. But I also like what you’re saying, because it leaves an openness that allows the person who’s coming in for work to show up how they are and allows you to show up how you are, no matter what’s going on in the outside world, like you said, like you come in with all of that imperfection. And what I found is those readings where I am fully open and fully, like vulnerable. And it’s not about me like talking about myself, but like, where I’m fully like allowing whatever is to come through. That seems like those are the readings that are like the most powerful and that people seem to get the most out of because I’m not doing this like show. You know what I mean? That for me myself? Yeah. Um, and I love I love how you described that too, because I think there are so many ways that words really fail what what the work really is. 

Scout Chavers  53:40  

And it’s better just leave people confused. I feel like I don’t, that’s why my bio ends up being so long, because I’m just like, I don’t really want to list everything that I do. Because that’s kind of obnoxious. Like, I don’t need to be like, hear all the styles of yoga that I teach and hear all of the different divination, like tools that I like to use, like, I don’t like doing that. But I also like, don’t love the terminology either, either. So I’m kind of like, well, I’ll just kind of say some stuff. And hopefully people will ask me about it. And then they’ll kind of know or, you know, like and I do also think that saying that you’re a healing guide. What it allows people to do is form the expectation that they’re also going to have to show up and prepared to do work. Yeah, it takes a little bit of the pressure of like, you’re going to need to be doing work. This is a this is a heavily inclusive thing for you. It’s not just about me showing up and like giving you a band aid. Yeah,

yeah. And I also think there’s like a sense of openness that you have to have at all times, because I don’t know if your experience has been like this, but mine has where all of a sudden something is happening that has never happened before in a session with a client and I’m like, Okay, now I have to just pretend like this is normal. I’m not like normal, but like now I just have to kind of like take it in stride. And you know, figure out how to work with it. And again, you cannot have things like that happen and have your ego involved in it like you. Oh, yeah, I have to just be like, all right, like help me figure out what Do all of a sudden I’m seeing these past lifetimes and I don’t know what that’s about, like, that’s never happened before, yeah, yeah. Or, um, and so I think there is like a certain amount of surrender and like you said participation that that sets people up for because there’s, you know, even if I wanted to try to do it all myself, there’s only so much I can do if you’re not there. Like if you’re not ready to participate in your own healing.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. It’s, it’s a, it’s a mutually beneficial exchange between the two of you, but also like it, they have everything to gain, but they have to show up for themselves. And that’s really what it’s about is we also don’t really learn in our culture, how to show up for ourselves, we know how to show up for everything else, we’re taught how to show up for school on time work on time, we’re taught to show up and do certain things at certain times of the year, like, keep our car registered, and make sure you go to the dentist, and all of these different things. But we’re not taught about self care, we’re not taught about how to make sure that we are okay energetically, spiritually, and how to find embodiment in our own self work. We’re not taught any of those things. So it can be difficult. But you know, that’s why that’s why people seek out guidance.

Yeah. And that’s part of the reason why I wanted to have interviews on this podcast in general, because I didn’t want to just be saying, This is my experience. And what I felt the entire time was like a buying, like, when I was going through, again, another word, I hate spiritual awakening. Going through this whole process, where like, these things that I, like you said, didn’t know that everybody wasn’t experiencing that I was experiencing, um, and was really kind of coming to terms with them. I kept like buying these books and trying to like, read and trying to use like somebody else’s way of doing things, which Yes, like other people can guide us and can, and can teach us about boundaries and, and staying safe and protecting ourselves and all of that, and that is so important. But I wanted somebody to just like, tell like, I wanted an instructional guide to Sheila’s intuitive gifts, and I was not getting it. And I was really frustrated. And one of the things that I really wanted to do with this podcast, and one of the things that I’ve realized recently is that I felt so lonely and like such a sense of isolation when I was going through this, and like I could only tell like, there was almost nobody in my life knew what was going on at for even my partner like I was like, Well, I’m not really sure it’s been like two years. I’m not really sure if I’m ready to like, spring on him, but that I’m seeing ghosts, like that’s, 

that’s a big one, like, let’s get into a little bit little at a time. Yeah,

Sheila M  57:45  

I was like, I’m really afraid that I’m going to be committed or something or that I might be losing my mind. And so I was really nervous about telling anybody. And it was very isolating, because for a long time, it was like just me, like figuring stuff out. And then I kind of started to find a little bit of community, which was great, but I really wanted to have people on so that other people could talk about their intuitive experience, because it is not, there’s not just one lane, there’s like millions and billions of individual ways that you’re going to connect. And I think hearing those stories from other people and having friends who are in these types of communities who have shared their experiences has been so helpful and so powerful to me. So, um, I just wanted to say that because I really, I do appreciate you like sharing so much about that as well. Yeah,

Scout Chavers  58:37  

thank you, I feel the same, I feel the same way To be honest, I really do. Because that was what took me so long to really settle into feeling like I was an intuitive and I also don’t really love I don’t identify heavily with the word medium. And a lot of that is because for a long time, I saw a medium as a very specific thing that I felt felt like I wasn’t. And I think that speaks a lot to what you were just saying before of like, everyone has their own avenues. And so like just realizing that for me, I don’t really like see things I don’t see and a lot of the mediums that I was aware of as a child saw things when I was like, that’s not me. I just definitively was like, that’s not me, I don’t do that. And so because I receive information in a different way. I just never thought that I that applied to me. And so I do think that it’s important to hear all the different ways that people receive this data into their bodies and into their consciousness. Just to know just to resist the temptation to constantly make ourselves wrong. Because I do think that’s something else that we we learn is just we’re trying to make ourselves wrong every step of the way. Yes,

Sheila M  59:41  

yeah. I love that. You said that too. Because I was having the same thing where I was like, I’m not physically seeingsomething so like, I must not be this thing. And and like that was like a whole experience for me to be like, Oh no, there’s there’s all these different ways they have a sense of things and that is clairvoyant It’s like definitely not my, my, like main thing. And so it was very interesting to me because I was like, oh, okay, then there is a whole process here that I didn’t even realize. Um, yeah, I want to talk, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the doula community that you run and the ethical non monogamy space that you run, because this kind of ties into to some of the embodied I mean, everything that we’ve talked about ties into the cards that I really feel like you embody. But I want to talk specifically about that, because I think it will kind of ring true with some of this stuff. So can you talk about your doulasupport circle? And how, how that work has really kind of redefined healing guidance for you as well.

Scout Chavers  1:00:55  

Yeah, I so so that work essentially got started. Because I realized while in the doula community, very, very quickly, I was seen as someone who just had a lot of information and I I never saw myself that way. I think a lot of that information that I had or came came with immediately, as soon as I became a professional doula, I would say because I was going to births on and off throughout my whole life, really. Um, so when I started doing it as a job, I think a lot of that information came to me from my intuition and for my lineage, and a lot of that stuff came to me from my ancestors, both like physically in terms of learning from them, but also just like, I think, intuitively into my body, and through channeling and so once I saw that I was a resource, I just asked myself, like, what are you gonna do with it? So I started exploring different trainings of like, you know, just the doula world in general. Like, I thought it was very strange. I took two trainings when I first started working just because I wanted to be seen as legitimate because code switching and to man patriarchy, and to I just, you know, me and my rebellious self, I was like, why are we doing this? If this is so useless and ridiculous, in terms of like, there’s nobody who regulates doulas. Like there’s nobody who can tell you that you’re allowed to be a doula are not allowed to be doula, there’s a test you have to pass. And some people don’t like that. I actually love it because doulas, it’s more spiritual and intuitive work anyway, we’re not medical professionals in any way, shape, or form. So I just really think that it’s all about having someone energetically being there with you. And what I realized very quickly is that I was seen as a resource and I didn’t want to train people in a traditional trading environment. And what was really missing not only for doulas, but for almost any profession, especially people who work in wellness and providing wellness for other people is there was literally just no self care built into anything. What I saw was that I just had a bunch of friends who were massage therapists, a bunch of friends who were doulas among students who were yoga teachers, a bunch of friends who like peddle out wellness to everyone who were like slowly breaking down inside. And I was like, What is wrong with this story. So I just started to weave self care, rituals, divination, and like all of that magic that I like to practice into my routines for working for being a doula and starting to iron out and outline concepts of how I extend care to clients, and then how I then reflect that care back onto myself. So that I was always keeping my cup full enough to be able to continue to give so that we may experience some sort of sustainability in this career. Because the average burnout rate for a doula I think still now is like two to two and a half years, three years Max, doing it as full time work before they then decided to like look for another job or, you know, find something else to supplement or they’re, they’re so tired, they stop taking clients, so then they lose money, and then they have to go find another job. So it’s just a very fast burnout rate. And because we are so needed, due to health care in this country being trash, and you know, many, many reasons, I was just like, we have to do better, we have to have to do better. So I decided to to just kind of coin the random things that I do, which are not super special, they are very, very normal um in terms of self care and working myself care into my structure of not only business but actual like wellness care for clients and call it the wild awake. doula method. So through the wild wake doula method, it’s really just about how to care for yourself and also how to care for clients intuitively, and wholly and fully. And I sort of just created a little like guinea pig mentoring group. I’ve been doing little, like little sense of mentoring people on and off through trainings for the last couple of years. And I really wanted this group to just sort of extend to me their needs, like what’s been happening with you, what do you need, help me figure out what I need to give to the rest of the community so that I could figure out Do I need to really start a training because I’ll do it if that’s what you’ll need. And I’ll just make it different than everybody else’s trainings. Do you all need mentoring and more one on one work? Do you need access to data like what do you need so that I can help you get it in So that exploration with them has been fantastic. It’s been one round of them so far, and they’ve been really, really great of helping me see clarity as well as allowing me to give back to them. And it’s also the cornerstone of what helped me you know, start the nonprofit in terms of collecting money to not only help them continue attending births for for people of color, and their families, but also providing access and redistribution of wealth. So, so that’s that sort of how that came to be. And how I started to hold that space in the doula community.

I love that. And I, I think there is something in particular, because when we first met you were talking about that work that you were doing. And I was like, this is so important. And it is like across the board, not taken care of for people. And one of the things that I was seeing also was a lot of the people who were coming in for me as clients for energy work. And Tarot, were people who are in a traditionally caretaking type of career. So I was having all of these like, burned out caretakers who are just like, exhausted, and didn’t really like no lie. I didn’t really have conversations about it. They were working with me and we would talk about it. But it would be like, you know, when they had time to get in, and I really started encouraging people, like, let’s not leave before you have the next one booked, because we know how it gets. And I’m the same way. I’m like, I watched myself do the same shit. So I know, I know what’s happening. So when you talked about the community that you created, I was just like, God, this is so needed like this is so like, this is such important work. Because I see it so much. And I can’t even imagine in, in the community that you support where there are kind of crazy hours and you don’t necessarily know how long you’re going to be there at birth is not predictable. Sometimes it’s the middle of the night, sometimes it’s during COVID. Like there’s all this different stuff happening. How much that is needed. Now more than ever.

Yes, I think that that’s, that’s one of the many ways that I feel like, my life has prepared me honestly, for this weird craziness of 2020 in COVID. I don’t like saying just COVID because I don’t think it’s just COVID but 2020 in general. Yeah. Like we’ve all I’ve been prepared for COVID because my life has been, you know, enveloped in unpredictability. I think that not only you know, going past, just being like a queer black woman in America and the unpredictability of that. But also, just being the space of being a doula and being on call and not knowing when someone’s gonna call you for labor not knowing when during the day you might have to stop and change gears. And so I think that we are we as doulas are very, very prepared for unpredictability. And that is a skill set that needs to be utilized. And it can’t be especially for this planet as like, you know, things are starting to catch on to fire. But literally and figuratively. It can’t be used if we’re all exhausted. And if we’re all like, sitting in the corner, you know, dehydrated and exhausted from all of our work. Basically, I think that 2020 has shown us that we as a culture, we have a lot more work to do. So it’s time to rest. It’s time to recharge, it’s time to create sustainability and get to work.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love it so much. Um, and then you also hold your ethical non monogamy circle. What drew you into that? Obviously, it is a similar type of space holding work that you’re doing. But what really drew you to that which is like a little bit of a departure from just like the doula community.

Yeah, I it’s so weird. It’s such a departure. But then I feel like it’s not. I went through so many years of my life where I felt like I was doing too many different things that weren’t relatable in terms of just being like a doula, but also like a sex educator and also being a non monogamous person who likes to share community and space with those people. And then I slowly like as I turned 30 realize like, Oh, this is all the same stuff like over and over and over again in different spaces. And really what led me to hold that space is just being a non monogamous person and wanting to be in community with other non monogamous people, but also realizing that a lot of non monogamous people that were in community with me and Austin here are also in the spiritual community are also in the energetic community are also in the caretaking in a lot of caretaking facilities and in workspaces and so I just slowly started to realize that I see non monogamy ethical non monogamy I should say, as like one of my many spiritual paths, it makes me better it challenges me and it also just, frankly, forces me to do Shadow Work like pretty much all the time and so because of that All of those things, and the unpredictability and just the freedom aspect. It taught me to love. And in a different way It taught me to love in a more aware way. Yeah. And so I really like to bring all of these self care tools and the divination tools that I bring to the doula community also to that community as well. It was actually the cornerstone of this period of my life in this brand that I have been building is like love wild awake came first before scout wild awake before birth, wild awake, there was love wild awake. And that came to me channeled like through my intuition and meditation, had no idea didn’t come up with it wasn’t being creative, like randomly just came to me. And it was because I asked myself when I was still in my former marriage, where we started exploring ethical non monogamy together, like two or three years before, before, we inevitably went our separate ways. I just kept coming out of meditation, realizing like, I feel like I’m just really wide awake, like, I’m really, I’m loving in this wild, Primal way with like, you know, less rules and structure than I was grown up with, but or that I was raised with, excuse me, but I, but I also feel like I’m really awake, I don’t really have time to go to sleep. And in my marriage, I felt like, although we were very young, and, you know, in, in our discovery modes, I felt like we were already getting to that place of like, we were falling asleep at the wheel. Like I was like, Oh, my God, we’re like ignoring each other already. Like, we’re not even growing. We’re just falling into this mundane. And I don’t think that’s true about like all people who were monogamous, but that’s what we were doing. So I yeah, realizing that I was realizing that and I was slowly waking up to it.

Sheila M  1:11:39  

I love that you said that, too. Because I think I think that sometimes, because I think there’s so much judgment that can come from the cis straight community about that. I think that there is kind of this idea that you must judge them back. But it’s Yeah, it’s not. It’s not really like that. Yeah. 

Scout Chavers  1:12:01  

It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. either. I feel like we live in that society of good, bad, right, wrong. And it’s like, monogamy is not wrong. And ethical non monogamy isn’t wrong either. Like they can both exist in the same space. And maybe one is just not for you. But

Exactly, exactly. And that’s the thing. It’s like, I think, because I I kind of grew up in this way that you know, I grew up in a very conservative, very Catholic household. And so my experience of what was a relationship and what was normal, normal in quotes. And what was expected, was, like, totally in contrast to how I felt, even as a kid would be like, who like genuinely, truly, still, to this day, I’m like, Who cares if someone is gay, that is the end of my business. Like, I can’t even describe how much it’s none of my business. Like I can’t, like I just, it’s so irrelevant. And even I was talking to a friend recently about gender. And I was like, it’s so interesting, because we get like, so obsessive about gender. And I have always felt like cognition and gender and sexuality were like a spectrum and not an either or kind of thing. Because that’s the way that it feels to me energetically. And even as like, as a kid. Before I knew that I was picking up on that stuff, like I would pick up on all this subtlety. And the world that I was presented with was one that was very, this or that, and like, good or bad. And it just like, I think it’s one of the reasons that I just never connected with religion, because I was like, this doesn’t seem like you were saying, like, this doesn’t feel true to me, at least, intuitively, even when I was really young, I was like, This isn’t right. Yeah, something’s wrong here. 

My grandmother would look at you and say what she used to say to me when I was a child, which is like, Oh, you’ve been here before. And my grandmother used to say that to me all the time. She’s like, you’ve just lived too many lives that you came back and you’re like, by the way, this is bullshit. Like from a very young age, like very, very, and just already knowing and

Sheila M  1:14:25  

it’s so fun. It’s so interesting. And even like, within my family, so I’m the oldest of four. And even within my family, only one of my siblings is like, still religious and the rest of us are not. And, and it’s just, it’s, it’s very interesting to see you know, how things have kind of expanded and my middle sister says all the time, like, you know, only now cuz she’s a lot younger than me and my sisters are 11 and nine years younger than me. So like, there’s a lot And she’s like, you know, only now that I’m an adult Can I appreciate like, how how much work you did on the front end to try to like, shake them a little bit, you know, prepare them a little break through things because she’s like, I realized that my experience with them was like, completely different than yours. And I thought it was hilarious because I was such like, such a good like such a good girl, when I would put all you know what I mean? I got great grades. I never got in trouble at school. I never got arrested. I didn’t. I didn’t drink. I didn’t do anyget into anything. No fun

Scout Chavers  1:15:39  

Same, same- trying so hard to be good trying

Sheila M  1:15:43  

to be good. Like desperately, and my parents still, like always treated me like I was like such a rebel or like, so high maintenance. And yes, I’m like, Are you kidding? are getting arrested, people are getting DUIs, at like all like, you should be so lucky to have somebody that just has like a peace of mind. You know what I mean? And what’s hilarious about it is now that I’m older, like my mother would say to me, Well, I just never like I never worried about you. Because like, you’ve always kept your own council. Like, as a parent, it’s annoying as shit. but then when you’re older, I knew you weren’t going to take any shit from anyone. Yeah. Like, like, from the time you were like, 10, you would be like, no. Like, I can remember like, telling her about somebody like bullying at school. And like, she was like, do you want like, do you want to talk about it? I was like, Well, I think he’s just insecure. And she was like, Oh, well, yeah. Okay, so to

Scout Chavers  1:16:45  

sure, thank you for reading that whole situation yourself. 

Sheila M  1:16:48  

Exactly, exactly. But anyway, other than to say that, I think it’s so cool. Like you said, they are like seemingly very different things. But you kind of bring this similar energy to all of the different types of work that you do, which I think is so cool. And which helps me narrow down on what cards I really feel like you embody. And I had trouble in the beginning. So it’s like, I really don’t want to have too many, you know, but so first of all, definitely, with the lovers card, because I, I see how much you hold up this mirror of reflection, and really show people in all of these different areas, like, I’m holding up this mirror to show you what’s going on, like I’m reflecting this stuff back to you, because you’re not taking care of yourself the way you should. And you’re not advocating for yourself the way you should. And you are asking like other people to do it for you. And this is what you really have to like it’s not outside of you, it’s inside of you, and all of them inside job. And so I really, I really feel that with the lovers card. And like, like that was like the first thing because I like cards will like pop into my head all the time when I’m talking about people. And I remember early on on one of our calls, when you were talking about the program that you were working on, I was like, Oh my gosh, it’s like the lovers card. Like you’re like literally doing this work of holding people accountable to themselves and to their own needs for love, affection, self care, relationships, like all of these different areas. So I love that one for you,

Scout Chavers  1:18:27  

thank you,

Sheila M  1:18:29  

And then the Empress card. Because I always think of the Empress card as it’s about a lot of the thresholds in life, right. And so I think that there, so much of the doula work that you do, like you said, it’s all of these different initiations that we go through, and that we then need to kind of like recognize and bring this kind of joy and, and abundance of energy and awareness and happiness to, but it’s also about getting comfortable with receiving so like, yeah, which is so hard, like so hard for women, especially, or female, identifying people, especially, or female socialized people, especially all of your value and your growing up is taught to you in what you can do and how you can care for and be of service to other people. And so I think it is so valuable in what you do now that you are offering people the opportunity to receive this care so you’re both holding up the mirror with the lovers card to really show them that this is necessary and so needed and so worthwhile. And then with the Empress card, really teaching them both through I think personally through your behavior and and like leading by by doing and also by holding this space in community to say no like this is something that you need to show up for consistently. And this is something that you need to do for yourself. And there is nothing that you can do and no way that you can show up for another person if you’re not showing up for yourself.

Scout Chavers  1:20:08  

Yes, and it’s so funny that you say that about about my cards, and I feel so complimented. Thank you, the lovers is actually the most common card that I ever draw ever since I first got my first deck ever. And the Empress I love what you said, because that closely heavily relates, when I did my Kundalini training, I’m sure if you’re familiar with Kundalini Yoga, I was appointed a name, of course, like a Gurmukhi name. And the meaning of my name was like, live by example. Like you were the living example. Like if you continue to do the things yourself, which is a great practice for me, especially as a Virgo. Because I can preach, preach, preach, but if I’m not actually taking care of myself, What are you doing? So actually, my own self care being woven into my profession is a strategy of mine. But also, you know, how I burst everything that I do you know, what I mean? is holding other people accountable. I hold myself accountable as well.

Sheila M  1:21:02  

Yeah, yeah. I love that. And, and I love these two cards. And I also think they’re cards that are often like misunderstood, too. So I’m happy to have kind of a living, breathing example of them for people to reflect on as well, because I think it also helps bring kind of language to some of these cards that can be challenging for people.

Scout Chavers  1:21:23  

So yeah, I love that you do that. I love that you do that I that’s that’s how I learned every that’s how I learned astrology. And how I learned Taro was like, just looking at people’s charts like it like specially famous people and just being like, Oh, these are the attributes that I can notice about their personality. And then, with cards, I love paying attention to how you like to associate, honestly, like, like, almost like personifying the cards by giving them like human emotions, because it helps me feel like they’re expressing themselves more authentically, as I read more cards. So I just love that you do that.

Sheila M  1:21:53  

So I’ll see them with people and also see them with experiences, like on the episode I did with our friend, Winifred. And we were talking about her closing her physical store. And I was thinking in the moment, I was like, Oh, this is such like an eight of cups thing. Because like, yeah, you just knew it was the right thing that is so hard to do. And she she’s like, Oh, it was it was like it’s total eight of cups moment for me. And I was like, Yes. And so I love like, how that is because I feel like it gives people such a different context to understanding to. So this is so wonderful. And I I can’t even I can’t even tell you how much I appreciate it. I love having conversations with you, because they’re always just amazing. And really powerful. And I think, a very different perspective than a lot of other people that I’ve had on so far. And will have on because I’m, again, trying to pull people from kind of all these different areas and not just yeah, traditionally witchy things but things are kind of on the fringe and also like entrepreneurs, you know, and they Yeah, nobody is just one of those things. So can you tell people how they can work with you how they can get in touch with you? And what is the best way to stay involved with your work? And I will link everything up in the show notes, but I just like to let them know. 

Scout Chavers  1:23:13  

Thank you. Awesome. Yeah, of course, I have many a Instagram, so you can definitely find me @scoutwildawake is really how you can find me, you can find me at And you can also find me on Instagram under scout wild awake, I believe the Facebook page is wild awake wellness. So you can find me in those spaces just to keep up with me what I’m doing. You can also inquire about working with me as well in any capacity. So you do not have to be a doula to work with me in any way. Whether it’s you want to get a reading with me or maybe you’re looking for some coaching or some guidance in any in any way. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, small business owners, a lot of parents just in general people who are exploring their own relationship with themselves or with sensuality, things of that nature. And you can just keep keep updated. Keep your ear to the ground because I have a lot of new things launching as we finish off this, this crazy, crazy year. And we’re settling into 2021. So you can find all of the different links to other projects that I’m involved in like conscious coven, which is a sister project of mine that I do with another beautiful black witch. That’s a friend of mine. And we help people of color reclaim magic is their birthright that you can find all of those links at scout wild awake on Instagram. So thank you and thank you so much for having me. I’ve been dying to talk to you. So this is I know I know.

Sheila M  1:24:40  

This has been so great and especially it’s like a bright light and in the haze of the day after the first so we’re recording this The day after the first debate. Yeah, a heavy day. So this is like in my day, so thank you so much for being on Scout. Appreciate it.

Scout Chavers  1:24:59  

I appreciate you, too. Thank you.

Sheila M  1:25:05  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Intuition vs. Anxiety

intuition vs anxiety

On episode 16 of Living Tarot, I talk about how anxiety affects intuition. In the current environment so many of us are feeling overwhelming stress and anxiety due to the global pandemic, white supremacy and systemic racism, climate change, and an upcoming US election. For many people this is the most anxious they have ever been. Even people who are well resourced with their mental health are struggling. In this episode I discuss how to tune in to Intuition even with all of this anxiety in our daily lives. Recognizing anxiety and intuition is the number one question I get from students.  Anxiety is the cloud that hangs over our ability to connect with intuition and can block us and frighten us away from tuning in.

  • I discuss the patterns of anxiety versus the patterns of intuition in our bodies.
  • I talk about the importance of an embodiment practice to help us recognize signals that come up when we’re feeling anxious or when we’re getting an intuitive impulse.
  • I even speak about my own experience of recognizing how anxiety shows up for me and how I tune into my intuition when that happens.
  • If you have been wondering how to tell intuition from anxiety this is the episode for you.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

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Get Sheila’s Tarot for Anxiety spread here

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. Continuing on with our theme for the month of October, I wanted to talk today about intuition versus anxiety. This is one of the most popular polls that you guys voted on on my Instagram. And it is also one of the most common questions that I’ve gotten in classes, where I’ve taught about intuition. It’s one of the things that I work through with a lot of my one on one students. And I understand why it comes up because it also comes up for me, I think it’s pretty common. And to say that 2020 is not a year, rife with anxiety, and really, really tough challenges. This has been on my mind to cover because we do have a global pandemic going strong, we do have a social justice uprising, for the Black Lives Matter movement for justice in America. And also, we have in the United States, a very contentious election. So there’s a lot to be anxious about right now, quite frankly, and a lot of external stressors that are beyond our own control. 

So for many people who even are in treatment for anxiety, or have dealt with anxiety, over a long period of time, while they are very resourced to manage anxiety, they are not necessarily well resourced to manage chronic anxiety over six months to nine months of time without feeling a little bit of burnout, for sure, I think the term is is surge capacity, you’ve reached your surge capacity for how much you can take and how much your body can handle of being in a high stress situation, especially because this is a long term problem, especially for those of us in the United States. And it is there’s no solution in sight that we can see right now. And so we’re not getting the relief of knowing that something is going to be over soon, we’re not really getting a break from it. And so it’s pretty normal to be feeling extremely anxious right now. And I am a big believer in destigmatizing all mental health care issues. And it was important for me to talk about how this does play into intuition. Because there is a connection and we do see it a lot. And you have to in order to survive and to thrive even when that’s going on. You have to have that connection to your intuition as that kind of guiding light bringing you through these experiences. 

So we can’t talk about intuition and anxiety without talking about our ego. And in the spiritual community in particular, the ego gets such a bad rap. Everybody’s always talking shit on your ego, smash your ego, crushed your ego, kill your ego, you know shove it down, hide it underneath all this other stuff and that is a total bunch of garbage. It is not true. It’s not an effective way of dealing with it. And honestly what you create if you try to tell your ego no Be quiet, go down there, come back later. You know when you postpone or you or you delay or you try to ignore your ego has a tendency to just get louder, and the ego really is just doing its job, it’s important to recognize that because the job of the ego is to keep us present to keep us safe, to keep us in our physical body. To keep us aware of any trouble that might come up, it is a, it’s a self preservation tool. And I think that so many of us, you know, there’s a lot of talk in the wellness community about trying to crush this. And I just, I don’t think that it’s such an effective way to deal with it. And I don’t think it recognizes the truth of the ego, which is that it isn’t a bad thing. You need to have an ego so that you could advocate for yourself so that you can ask for what you need, so that you know when your needs aren’t being met. 

So putting that aside, what I do find to be a more effective technique for dealing with your ego, when you’re trying to listen to intuition, is to acknowledge it. So to acknowledge that it’s going to come up and a lot of us have, you know, a story that the ego tells us what’s that scary story, you know, what’s your ego scary story. And maybe it is something about, for example, I’ll use my my own life for personal examples. So when I was getting ready to leave my corporate job, I had a lot of fear. and rightfully so I had a lot of fear about going out on my own, I had a lot of anxiety going on, even though I knew it was the right decision, I was extremely anxious. And so I had this ego fear anxiety story that was playing in my head, like all the time, 24’7, I was like, Oh, my gosh, don’t they play anything else on this channel, I’m so sick of hearing this and it went something like, you can’t leave your job, you’ll never find something so secure and stable again. And you’ll never be able to afford this type of lifestyle, or you’ll never be able to buy a car, you’ll never be able to buy a house. And then you’ll have kids and your kids won’t get to live in a house, they’ll live in an apartment forever, and they won’t want to have other kids over from school and, and it kind of goes into this whole spiral. And suddenly you find yourself 10 steps ahead of anything resembling your current day life. And, you know, that that that trains gone off the tracks a little bit, and that your ego is really, really running the show at that point. And the way that I really dealt with that, and, and tuned back in to check in with my intuition and say, you know, is this still right? Is this still the right thing? Was that I would say, Okay, thank you ego, thank you fear. Thank you anxiety for keeping me safe. Yes, I know. I know, that’s fair. I know, that’s a possibility. But I’m just gonna, I’m just going to listen to like, what else is going on in here. So just turn turn that down a little bit. So when you acknowledge it when you say, yeah, you know what, that is a real possibility, maybe I won’t make any money for a couple years, maybe I will have to rely on my partner. And that makes me uncomfortable, maybe I am going to have to get a part time job for a little bit. And as you start to kind of answer some of those things, and just just acknowledging that you are paying attention to that. It’s, it’s, it doesn’t become quite so loud anymore. And you start to be able to hear what’s underneath it. And that’s where we find that voice of intuition, it tends to be a little bit softer. It’s usually in a different part of our body, like we talked about last week when we talked about embodiment. So I might feel I feel fear and anxiety and and my ego in one part of my body. So I feel that fear. And then in a completely different part of my body, I get the impulse of intuition. And so I can usually notice where it’s coming up. And if I do have that anxiety that’s kind of running rampant and I’m having trouble checking in. I will acknowledge that. I will say Yes, I know. You’re totally right. That’s so true. That’s so true. And then I will say, Okay, I’m just gonna listen to what else is here for a little bit. And sure enough, underneath that, I will hear that voice of intuition. as clear as day, maybe softer than everything else, but it will be in there. And one of the things that has helped me so much, is recognizing how normal it is to have that running. That running dialogue, that running display of everything that can go wrong. And acknowledging it and then tuning in. Because, you know, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like a little kid in that way. And that like you give them that little bit of attention, and then they’re good for for a few minutes. And you can pay attention to whatever show you’re watching or whatever, whatever thing you were trying to talk to your husband about, or whatever it is, where you can just kind of appease appease that sense of anxiety, and then tune into what’s really true underneath. And if you are in those moments, where you’re like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t know, if I’ve ever been so anxious, I am stressed to the max, I don’t know what to do. You can write down what comes up when you tune in in that moment. And you can really, you can really take that that edge off just the slightest bit and and hear that intuition. And write down you know, that clear message that comes through once you clear out that anger and frustration and anxiety and ego talk, you can hear that really gentle, intuitive message and write that part down. And just keep reminding yourself that because then it’s almost like you have like a save point in your brain where you’re like, Oh, yes, we just did this yesterday. And then I got this message from my intuition. And then you can listen for what else. And the more you do that, like we talked about last week, it is like a muscle you get used to turning that down. When my sisters- I have sisters who are much younger than me. And when they were young, my mom worked from home. And she was so used to tuning their voices out because she she would focus it on work that even now as adults, sometimes we tease her all the time that she kind of tunes them out, unintentionally, because she just got so used to it. And it’s just like that, the more you you start to turn that down, the more you can tune into intuition and pay more attention to that, the more it grows, and the more your ability to do that over and over grows. And you will have times where it wanes where you’re, you know, right now especially, it’s been very challenging for so many of us. And it is worth mentioning that you know, it is worth mentioning that these are extraordinary times, and that your level of anxiety is probably higher maybe than it’s ever been. And it can be even harder to hear your intuition. And because we are maxed out, you might be mistaking other things for your intuition as well. So I did want to talk about that a little bit. 

Hey there, did you know that I offer virtual tarot readings over zoom? Tarot is for you. If you’re at a crossroads and want to see your current challenge clearly, navigate complex decisions and plan how to move forward with confidence. Sometimes our emotions can get in the way of us seeing a clear path forward. And tarot acts as a neutral bystander that provides information and insight into our blind spots. I work with so many clients on business readings, decision making in business, and in career working towards promotions, getting insight on how to make the best moves. I also work with a lot of people on relationship readings, getting insight into both interpersonal relationships, and professional relationships. And I do year ahead readings as well. So you can celebrate your business’s birthday by getting some insight on the energy of the year ahead. What projects to focus on what to put on the backburner. These can be really potent and powerful offerings that provide you with a lot of insight to focus your energy for the year ahead. And right now I’m also offering Virtual Tarot parties. We have all experienced zoom fatigue, we’re tired of a staring at each other and having drinks over zoom. But tarot parties are a great option to celebrate life’s rites of passage while staying safe and socially distant. If you’re interested, check out the link in the show notes today or head over to 

I also wanted to say that you have to look at if you’re having trouble telling the difference between anxiety And intuition, you have to look at what the message is. So when we’re hearing from anxiety, we’re hearing something that is largely laced with fear. And every, like the example I gave from my life where I was afraid I wouldn’t have enough money to buy a car and then to buy a house. And then that would affect my children’s ability to, to make friends when they go to school. I don’t I’m not married, don’t have children don’t have any plans to at the moment. And I’m like 10 steps ahead, but it’s all run on fear there, right. However, on the other hand, you will have intuition, which is more like a gentle nudge, a gentle voice, a suggestion, an idea, something loving or compassionate. And it doesn’t have this same frenzy to it, at least how it works for me and how I’ve seen it work for most people, it tends to be a little less frantic, it would probably be the best, the best way to put it. So notice the quality of that as well. And for those of you who are experiencing really intense anxiety right now, first of all, I am a huge proponent of therapy, I can’t recommend it enough. I think it’s extremely important and extremely undervalued. In our Western society. It’s stigmatized, and a lot of ways. And I just think that’s total bullshit. I think that if you need help, you should absolutely seek out help. And if there was ever a time to need help, it is right now. So please take care of yourselves. I also would say, when it comes to times like these that are extremely anxious, and you are looking to get some of that excess energy out, it’s important for us to have some sort of physical practice. And I don’t mean, I don’t mean that you have to be like going to CrossFit or going to the gym every day, or having some like, elaborate workout routine. But our bodies are biologically structured, to respond to stress with the hormones and the adrenaline, so that, you know, we can escape the lion that we run into in the wild, you know, way back in the day. But now, we aren’t having as much of that physical activity in our lives. And so we don’t finish out that stress response, until we can kind of shake that out. And so what happens is, we, we build this whole thing up. And, and we have all this anxiety and our body is in like fight or flight. And then we we can suit you know, we have different ways of soothing, so maybe you just breathe, maybe you do some sort of deregulating exercise some sort of somatic exercise, which is excellent, because that can get your anxiety back to a manageable level. But there’s still the matter of what is biologically going on in your body. So you still are kind of jacked up on those adrenaline and other hormones. And so one of the things that I find very helpful, which sounds crazy, is to just kind of shake it out. So I will literally just like shake my body and I’ll shake my arms, I’ll shake my legs, almost like if you were imagining you got like shocked by electricity. Sometimes I just kind of sway my arms back and forth. Sometimes I do a little yoga practice or I take a quick jog around the block. And if you are not an able bodied person, you can also do you know, you can do muscle contraction and release if you have access to that. So you can just kind of scan around your whole body and do like progressive muscle tension and relaxation. Or you can even in your mind, kind of scan the whole body and imagine each of your muscles doing that. Because your brain doesn’t actually know the difference between you thinking you’re doing it and you actually doing it. So you don’t have to be you know an athlete or you don’t have to be physically able in any way to to do this type of exercise. And I would recommend that you do it regularly in in this day and age, but especially If you are sitting down to do some sort of intuitive work, if you’re doing divination, if you are getting energy healing done, if you are trying to get an answer on something, if you’re sitting down for a creative project, all of those are really wonderful times to get that access out. So that you can really work from a lower anxiety baseline and be able to access your intuition in an easier in an easier way. So that’s one of the things that I find can be extremely effective when it comes to dealing with intuition and anxiety. And finally, I talked about it in the episode where I talked about when to get a reading from a professional reader. But it’s worth mentioning again, that if you are even if you are a reader, or you identify as a reader, and you’re just having like a really anxious time, it can be helpful to have somebody else hold the space for you. So whether that is getting energy healing, or working with some sort of somatic healer, or a yoga teacher or a tarot reader, there are so many different ways to work with your own intuitive connection. And sometimes when we are really in the depths of a really difficult time, or we’re really managing through a lot of anxiety, having another person there to hold the space to reflect things back to us. And to really give you your autonomy back to validate things that you were feeling intuitively, that can be extremely powerful, especially in growing your own intuitive ability, because what happens when you come in and you know, I’ve had clients come in and have, you know, a Reiki session with me or a tarot session with me. And they’re very anxious, and they have a lot of stuff going on. And they’re not quite sure. And I can tell that they’re unsettled from the moment they come in. And, you know, we have a conversation, we talk about what’s going on.

We talk about where they really want to focus things or where they’re looking for answers. And then I tell them what I’m seeing or feeling or what’s coming up. And then sure enough, I mean, nine times out of 10, I will tell them something, I’ve seen this, this and this and they’re like I knew it, I knew, I knew that was a problem. And I knew that was like, I knew that I just got in this fight with my spouse and and I’ve got this pain here. Or I just got in a fight with my partner. And now I I’ve been having this like foot pain for weeks. And I don’t know what what happened. But I felt like it was related to that. And it just didn’t make sense to me. Or, you know, I’ve had all kinds of things like that happen. And I’ve seen firsthand and have experienced firsthand as somebody who gets energy work and and gets professional readings from friends and other people. And I can’t, I can’t recommend it enough, when you’re having a hard time getting out of your own way, because just the tiniest bit of validation can send you on your way to fully trusting those intuitive impulses when they’re coming across. So I hope that helps give you some insight into intuition and anxiety. I have been working for a little while now on something more detailed for this. So I’ll have to let you all know when that is up and running. But in the meantime, you can always book a session with me to work either one on one with coaching or with Tarot, or with Reiki, all of which I am still doing over zoom virtual sessions. And could be a really great way to start to tune into this intuition and especially now, with so much going on in the outside world. As always, I would love to hear your feedback. I would love to hear what really resonated with you what sounded familiar what you recognized in your own experience. And I would love to hear about anything that you’d love for me to talk more about or anything that stood out to you as something that you’d like to hear a whole episode on. I am all ears so you can feel free to reach out to me I will see you back here next week. 

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Intuitive Art, Charging into Creativity with and Undefended Heart, & Embodying the 3 of Swords with Lucy Morningstar

lucy morningstar

In episode 15 of Living Tarot, I speak with artist and tarot deck creator, Lucy Morningstar. Lucy is an artist, a witch, and a creatrix who is determined to help others shamelessly manifest their desires and create life on their own terms. she helps people bring their desires and visions to life on canvas through her painting and our commissions. This episode is all about the intersection of Tarot and art and what it’s like to go through the process of channeling and creating Tarot art through deep personal trust and creativity.

  • Lucy and I talk about what it’s like to break with family tradition and embrace intuition over logic.
  • We discuss how Lucy worked through mental health struggles by processing her emotions through art.
  • Lucy talks about how therapeutic it was to paint self-portraits as archetypes of the Tarot and how that work demystified some of the scarier cards in the Tarot.
  • She talks about her creative process and how friends and family often serve as models for her tarot art.
  • We also discuss how Lucy embodies the three of swords and brings in the energy of the card of the year ( The Emperor) into her creative work.

This episode is a deep dive on healing through art and how the art and archetypes of the Tarot can teach us all to embody things we didn’t think we could.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

 To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Work with Lucy:

Find Lucy Online at or on Instagram at

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. I’m very excited today to have the incredibly talented Lucy Morningstar on the podcast. Lucy helps you connect with the powerful and collective unconscious through her art of all the mystical archetypes of the Tarot. She’s an artist, a witch and createtrix. In addition to being relaxed and laid back Aussie Lucy is determined to help others shamelessly manifest their desires and create life on their own terms. She helps people bring their desires and visions to life on canvas through her paintings and art commissions. Lucy and I had a really incredible conversation about the transition of intuition and how it grows throughout your lifetime. As well as what it’s like to have a family that maybe is not as supportive of some of your greater dreams, and of embracing intuition. This was a really powerful episode for me personally, because we did get very personal about our own lives. But also because Lucy’s artwork is so beautiful and so potent and getting to hear her explain her creative process, and also how she has really embodied the three of swords, and kind of fearlessly charging forward even when she is feeling that sense of heartbreak. That’s really powerful for me, so I hope that you will find it as helpful. Let’s dive in. 

Today I have Lucy Morningstar here with me. I’m so excited. So Lucy, can you tell us a little bit more about your work and what you do in this world?

Lucy Morningstar  2:38  

Yeah, sure. Um, I will say that I am an artist because I paint that’s like, my, that makes up a lot of my daily work. So I’m a painter, and I mainly paint portraits and portraits of people. I’m in archetypes and one of the main archetypes obviously is the Tarot – the concept is, you know, powerful archetypes in the Tarot and also also paint some deities, witches so I would say like, a portion of his Tarot crater like probably for pagans, right. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I do.

Sheila M  3:21  

Very cool. And so obviously, when it comes to art, there are a lot, a lot of different types of art, what really drew you into portraiture and also, specifically around Tarot, like, what really kind of drew you into wanting to work with those archetypes?

Lucy Morningstar  3:40  

Yeah, so, um, when I found out about painting, um, a couple years ago, because I, my background wasn’t in art or anything, not even literature has nothing to do with them either. I was in finance. And I started as you know, in banking, like financing, property developments, that kind of stuff. I found out about painting online through an online workshop when I was pregnant with my second kid and I thought, you know, I’ll just take this and then the minute I pick up, you know, paint and brush for the first time, I just thought, wow, you know, this is I just felt that this was what I was meant to do in this lifetime. And it was very interesting. Only a couple of months ago, like today at this year, a couple of months ago, I bought this reading by the is called inner light or inner darkness, like basically an A simple astrology. It’s not really simple but astrology reading from Benabell Wen and she does to raise your arm, black lilies, white lilies, that kind of things. And in one of the sections that you’re talking about it because of my chart it she said that tell me this is you like you pick up a hobby, then it turns out to be Your like your life, passion or your life purpose. And I when I read that I just that’s so true, both with how I discover painting and tarot. So you know, as I discover painting, I just, you know, really felt like painting faces I have, you know, these some landscapes and some still life, but they just felt like, you know, practicing techniques rather than really feeling anything that I’m really want to do. So, and, and during the many years when I was painting, there was a time, I was really focusing on painting self portraits as a healing process, because I found out that, like, I was depressed and I had to be rushed, you know, hospital emergency there was like, you know, and then I started painting self portraits and fun to be super healing. And but you know, is my mentor, my artist mentor has always asked me the question, like, like, why do you paint? Like, what is the, what is the meaning or why, right? So I’ve been asking myself, like, if we just about healing is just some tool generic and just didn’t, I have some, like, I knew they had something to do with, you know, the power of art, the visual arts and healing and all that, but it still felt a bit vague and didn’t can like click until I found the tarot. And it was like, I also started my spiritual journey, then I’ve had come out of the depression. And it was like, two years later, there was just this online shop online course again, right, you notice that this day and age, online courses are really amazing. And this course was by Susannah Conway. And she had this I think the course was, was called daily guidance. Basically, it was helping you tune into your intuition by picking a card a day, and you could choose to work with Oracle cards or tarot cards. And at that time, I didn’t know the difference between Tarot and Oracle. And she basically explained very simply, Tarot has a structure a set of structure, every deck has the same structure. But with Oracle cards is more freeform, they have different number of cards, and, you know, they have their own, like, their own thing. So I also then immediately I want to work with the Tarot, because just for the structure, because, you know, I think probably many creative people could relate is that our mind just go everywhere. Sometimes. Like your your don’t follow, like a logical stream of thought you could jump, you know, everywhere. And they’ve probably some maybe unrelated to other people, but they make sense to you like, and and you just feel like doing this flooding that and then sometimes we’ll feel you know, we’re just being spontaneous and go with the flow. But, but I actually found, you know, like, that wasn’t me. But you know, probably we’ll get to that later how Tarot has helped me have more structure. So I just really knew that I wanted to have a bit more structure, because I would just like, go in my mind’s everywhere, like I have maybe heavy in air signs. And so my mind goes everywhere. I just really felt that I wanted some structure to be more grounded and that kind of stuff. So I immediately knew I wanted to work with the Tarot. So as soon as I

Unknown Speaker  8:25  

got my first deck as a shadow scape Tarot, it’s very beautiful. Right. And, and I also, you know, learn a bit more about Tarot, I just found that wow, you know, this is like, this stack of 78 cards, basically, I like the answers to, they contain the keys to, you know, life on earth and beyond is like, ya know, and he just helped me find meaning like the as my mentor asks, why do you create and I just because I want to, you know, find meaning in this life and beyond and also actively create the meanings. And tarot just helped me to that and express that and make sense of things and actively be an active creator. Yeah, whatever you want to embody. You can find it in the Tarot and use as some kind of guidance. You can leave that right?

Sheila M  9:24  

Yeah, yeah, I think that’s so beautiful. And I love First of all, a couple things that like really stood out to me that, um, art kind of became this healing process for you. And I think it’s so interesting how bringing like a physicality to the work can help process all of that emotion. And and like can help do like a lot of the heavy lifting. And I think, especially in this day and age, there’s not, there’s a lot of value placed, I think on kind of traditional psychological  structure and and you know everything that they kind of set up over history. But now we’re kind of finding more and more how helpful things like art therapy can be in processing some of this complex stuff. And I also loved what you said about how the tarot can kind of focus, the more you know, the more chaotic minds, I think of the world. And I literally teach, I actually teach about this in one of my like, mini workshops, where I talk about how, when you look at a tarot card, like it automatically stops your brain from like thinking mode, and switches you into reflection mode, and how that can make like, such a deep impact when you are having like, anxiety or something like that, because it kind of interrupts whatever process is happening.

Lucy Morningstar  10:51  

Yes, exactly. And I found that I think it also what, like how I use the Tarot, especially with the, you know, people find to be the most difficult cards, right. And I think that’s when I see the difficult cards it really reminds me of my self healing process out of depression. Because, like, when you paint a slight, you know, when I was deeply depressed, I’ve been painting a lot of self portraits. And what I have realized, after painting, many self portrait was that, you know, that painting looks like me, like, I am, like, That is me, but it’s also not me, you might be at a record in time of how I felt, how I want to express myself, but even if I totally burned the painting ashes, like that is me. I am still here. So that that is like a detachment. So so that made me also see that, you know, I can feel whatever emotion going through whatever experience pleasant or unpleasant, right now in this in whatever situation, like, but they are not totally me. Like they it’s just what you go through what you’re feeling, though, what you really are, you know, in the probable the woo kind of sense, like, the bigger you the higher or however you want to call it is much bigger, just then the situation then your response to a situation than your emotion. Right? It’s not that you ignore them. But But this you don’t totally become identified with it. Yeah, right. And you see yourself as much bigger so, so are the same with the tarot cards. Of course, we forget the happy cards is all good, right. But I think we’ll also you know, because if it could become even to attach to the good things, then you also like, is, I think it, because we assume that good is, is what we want to have. And, and the bad is what we don’t want to have. But I think if you get too attached to both, um, if you want to become like, see yourself as bigger than that particular experience, you need to have a little bit of distance, whether there’s a good experience or a bad experience, you so so you can still enjoy it, but know that you are bigger than that. So even so with a difficult cards, for example, once we see in the tarot card, you know that it is not totally personal, it is personal on a level, but it’s also an an archetype or collective experience that people, a lot of people, if not everyone goes through. So and and this one particular experience, for example, is only one out of the 78 cards. And it does not represent the whole deck does not represent the whole, you know, material or spiritual experience that you’re able to to experience. So that gives you a bit of distance, and you don’t become totally identified in that moment for that particular experience. Right? Because, you know, it’s just one of the cards, if not all of it.

Sheila M  13:47  

Yeah, I love that you spoke to that too, because I think like people’s idea of what like the challenging cards are, are really different kind of based on personality type too as well, which I think is really interesting because there’s kind of like the traditionally difficult cards like maybe the tower, maybe death although sometimes death is wanted if you’re like in a situation that you’re ready to let go of, but I think it’s really interesting. How like, what is challenging can shift over time. I personally have had this experience over like the past year of dealing with the temperance card a lot which is really lovely card, but I find it particularly challenging to be in temperance and so when I pull it I’m always like, Here we go again, you know, but like other people pull it in they’re like Oh, good temperance, you know so i think a lot of it is subjective to like you’re saying it’s deeply personal.

Lucy Morningstar  14:44  

Yeah, temperance, I also find it very hard to embody as well because like if we think about you know, Taoism is the middle path and in the Kabbalah is also the middle, like the middle is the most pleasant but it’s really hard as human beings to stay in. Most balanced always choosing the middle path, right?

Sheila M  15:03  

Yeah. And like you were saying, you have a lot of air in your chart, I have a lot of fire in my chart, which does not really lead itself to being that middle path. You know, it’s always kind of extremes. So it’s, it’s very interesting how like personality can come into play.

Lucy Morningstar  15:19  

Yeah. And I think some of the more difficult carsd, like I said, the tower, like these are probably some of my favorite cards, because I even painted like in the in the deck that I’m working on, I even use myself as model for the tower and also for the three of swords, like the most difficult cast, because I just like those were actually mine was my most they were my most feared card. So I actively put myself in those cards. Yeah, is one way of embracing it. And you know, and yeah, I just find, and I just, you know, once you’ll also see yourself in that situation, it also helped create a bit of distance.

Sheila M  16:02  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So with all of that, what has been your experience of cultivating your intuition? I know you spoke a little bit to the course I’m just starting with our but how has that kind of shifted over time? Like, how is your intuitive practice shifted? And how do you use it in your daily life?

Lucy Morningstar  16:23  

Yes. So I, I don’t think that grew up. Like really encouraged. Like, even heard of, I think I’ve heard of the word intuition as I was growing up, because I grew up in mainland China. And I think after the Cultural Revolution and everything, it was very materialistic. So I remember even when I was a little kid, probably three or five, I was living with my grandparents. And I asked my grandpa, do you believe in spirits and ghosts? And my grandpa, just answer? No, we are materialistic. So and I asked, What are you so materialistic? And then he said, You will only believe in what we can, you know, physically see touch? Right? And I said, Oh, okay. I like somehow I remember that. And I, and so I was raised atheist. Um, and sometimes when in school in China, or with your friends, if you mentioned, intuition is kind of like a joke. You know, it’s like, yeah, it’s just like, you would like to sort of fun joke, or people can just, like, look at you in a funny way. And, you know, it’s to be made fun of, it’s not something that’s real serious, or, or anything, it means that you’re not educated, that you’re not thinking straight. Yeah, are you just, if you want to not take yourself seriously and make fun of yourself, you can say, that’s just my intuition. Like, it’s not like, you know, so I don’t think it’s something that I’ve actively cultivated or even looked toward, for for a large part of my life until I started painting. Then, when I started painting, I started to get a sense of, you know, where the artist ideas come from. Right? And it has to come from somewhere. And then I started to really get a sense or start to really believe there’s something beyond, you know, the material, the material, what often we can physically feel with our five senses. And and then, and then once you started opening to just more and more things that just confirmed that there’s much more than that. I’ll tell you about one that’s very, like kind of Oh, like, yeah, yeah. So the swords paintings were one of the first that I that I painted out into the swords. So as one of the first one opinion was self portrait is the three of swords. You know, as a self portrait, and my idea, like, at that time, of course, are just, you know, my, I just wanted to paint myself for the three of swords. At that time. I didn’t think, Oh, you know, because it’s the most like my most feared card, like, this looks, you know, I want to paint it. I think I just first got ideas, I wanted to paint myself for the three of swords. And then I then started to think, you know, what, if, and then aside to rationalize to myself why I wanted to paint the three of swords in the self portrait. And I think, you know, in the two of swords, you make a decision, and then in the three of swords, you commit to that decision, even if you know that it’s gonna, you know, cause pain or heartbreak later down the chain, you’re committed. So, and I think, you know, this is what I’m gonna do. I’m committed to painting this, you know, this series of paintings. I am committed to Tarot, you know, because I’ve found so much meaning. So even if later on, I’ll be criticized for my work not good enough, or because you see in the Tarot community, sometimes there can be a lot of criticisms, even people you know, Look at like those people with big names or what they get like Benebell Avalon, you know, Thersa, they are doing such a wonderful work and they get, you know, chose, right. So, so I think you know what, and if I am putting that out there, finally, I could get really bad feedback, right? So but our three of swords, I say, you know what, I am committed to this, even if that’s what’s gonna happen, I know there’s a possibility is very possible, but I am ready like to open my heart to keep it open. And to to this path. So knowing that it could vary with potentially bringing in heartbreaks and backstabbing and all that, you know, just so I painted that in the through of source and a year later, at that time, when I painted it, I didn’t know anything about astrology probably, except for the symbol or the glyph of my sun sign Libra. Other than that, I really didn’t know. I didn’t even know what an Ascendant was. So that’s like how little I knew about astrology. So a little bit more than a year later. You know, I bought Benebell Wen Spirit Keepers Tarot, and then also sat just started to learn a bit about astrology, and then order the glyphs for the planets and the 12 zodiac signs. And then one day after shower, I just went to my, you know, my room, my reading room, my artist space, and then I just felt like, you know, what, am I really being divinely guided, guided by spirits and all that because, and so I just pick up a Spirit Keepers Tarot, and I have my, my Artemis statue, and my ultimate painting that has I, she’s kind of like my protector, my nation goddess. And I just so I miss I really been like guided, please just, you know, just choose a card and see what you like, what what you say. And then I shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, and the three of swords came out. And, and you know, what’s the thing about it is when I choose the three of swords, of course, like, after a year, painted a self portrait, so I didn’t think of it at all. So it’s not like, you know, when I’m telling you, we’re always talking about a three of swords, so you know where I’m leading. But when I pull out that card, I wasn’t thinking about the painting at all. And then when I saw that card, it was the leaves the zodiac sign of Saturn in Libra, and I just learned about astrology. And no, my child had Saturn in Libra. And then, you know, he was like, because like, what are the odds? Right? If you think about it, there’s 78 cards, and then the setting could be in any kind of signs, and what are the old study that would match and a year ago, I decided to pay myself as three of swords and that’s set in, Libra, and am I chapter seven in the bra, so and you know, so just, you know,

Sheila M  22:49  

yeah, it’s so powerful. When that happens when you have that, like confirmation. I have, like, so many times when it’s happened, because I’m, I’m like you to where I, I was, I come from a very conservative, Catholic background, I was raised in a very Irish Catholic family. And, um, you know, I always had stuff and I was kind of taught to, like, it’s wrong, or to ignore it my whole life. And so it’s been, it’s been very interesting, because I find that I’m always looking for, like, further validation. And I’ve, like, I’ve had crazy things happen to me. I’m a medium spirits talk to me, like all of this stuff. And I still say all the time, like, if it wasn’t happening to me, and if it wasn’t happening to me regularly, I wouldn’t believe it.

Lucy Morningstar  23:39  


Sheila M  23:40  

But I’ve had so many situations where I was just like, you know, I can use some help, like, give me a sign. I’m like, something has happened, like, so directly. I recently had this experience where I, I wanted to see this angel card reader, and she’s wonderful and extremely popular. So she had a very, very long waitlist. And so I put my name on, like a year before this. And I was going through a lot like in in my career life, and I was trying to figure things out. And I, I had a client cancel an appointment, which almost never happens. Um, and so I was like, okay, like, I didn’t really think anything about it. And I’d had a really frustrating day, and I kind of was on my way to go teach yoga, and I sitting in my car waiting outside the studio, and I was like, you know, I really need some help. Like, I really needs some guidance, you know, angels guides, whoever, like somebody just helped me out. I feel like I really need to hear from you. And so I went in, I taught the class I drove home and I pulled into the driveway at my house. And I had an email on my phone from that angel card readers assistant and she said, Hey, we had a cancellation at 1030 tomorrow, which is when my client had canceled at 1030. Tomorrow, can you come and I was like yes, and I was like, This is Crazy, like, if the timing of it and the person cancelling and all of that, like it was just too many things for me to be like, Oh, it’s just a coincidence, you know?

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Lucy Morningstar  26:53  

Yeah, you know, sometimes we always brush those things off as coincidence and just random events. But like the, I think we just need to pay attention. Because we’ve always just brush things off as a coincidence, or just random occurrence of things. And you can see there was just random events happening and none of them are correlated or connected or, or you can choose to pay attention. And then you see the world is a much more magical or a miraculous, you know, thing of being then then you’re you know, very conservative or the atheist viewpoint is right. Yeah. Like, you know, we can choose to live as a Catholic conservative or atheist, like, Oh, you can choose to live as a magical person and what is the more fun way to live? Even if everything is just Whoo, like, made up? Like, how do we want to perceive the world? And how do you want to how do you want to leave? Right? Well,

Sheila M  27:51  

Exactly. I think it’s so interesting. Um, so as you kind of started to create this deck and kind of put things together what is that process been like for you? And how, how is it when you kind of sit down to work on a card? Like, do you decide ahead of time or are you like channeling in what card you’re working on that day? How does it work for you?

Lucy Morningstar  28:17  

Okay, so for this so I so for this that is that that I am creating? It’s a very different experience that I was creating for Ethony you know, Ethony has done more than love Tarot coming out and I I painted like I was an artist for that deck. So when I was working with Ethony then she gives me a like, you know, just some brief explanations of how she wanted and she didn’t doesn’t stick figure thumbnail for me to follow. So in that way that that I just knew exactly what she wanted like very much from her simple sketch, then I didn’t have to really channel or think very hard right, right now and for this one, where is my ideas then of course, the creation process and take a lot longer because I have to kind of you know, it’s like someone just give you the idea then you just materialize and you have to have the ideas tool and then you have you just have to conjure the idea right? Yeah, for example, the three of swords I just wanted to do that like have feel like that I have actively opening my heart and have the arrows coming in from behind. And I just had that in my mind. And then I just asked my son to take a photo of me doing that pose and then that and then just, you know, Joe Joe, some thumbnails to figure out like you know, the best composition, whether you want a really close up or the full body or just upper body you know, that kind of just like the techniques co stuff and for a lot of the concepts I am creating myself. I For example, I painted the swords suit first. And then in between that I have some major arcana cards that if I have the idea that I will ping them, I think I have a bit of structure, I want to tackle, one sword at a time. So I did the swords and then the cups. And now I am on to the wands and I want to do the wands and then the Pentacles and then leave the aces last. But that’s my, I just want to do that with because I want to, like leave the aces last, like I said, the aces, you know, it’s like, back to the beginning like this might like, so I just like, I can’t explain why. But probably that’s like intuition speaking, I want to have that kind of structure to how I approach it, but also want to have a bit of structure. And also, I think, not logically because I kind of can explain my intuition in many logical sense. Right? Yeah, just so used to, you know, cuz I like, also, when you work a particular suit at a time, then the paint on my palette stays pretty similar.

Sheila M  31:06  

Right? Oh, that makes a lot of sense that I would have never thought about that. But that makes sense.

Lucy Morningstar  31:10  

Yeah, I was thinking, you know, one day paying, you know, water and fire, then, you know, the, what has a lot of blues and turqoise, and that kind of thing, that’s, you know, you don’t see that much in the ones painting, right. And so it just saves paint. And also give me peace of mind in choosing the paint the color palette. So like, that’s the very technical part when it comes to so once I have that structure, then which card I want to paint is like, you know, I have this model for this card. And Teresa has actually introduced me to a lot of people that that would like to be model for, for the cast. So I will of course, if there is a model for the car, then I will look at their Instagram, their photos on their website, or if I you know, Facebook and just see, just get it and read their, you know, pose and the about page just to get a feel of, you know, what they are, how they you know how they are. And then sometimes I will, you know, keep thinking about them in the card in the shower, or, you know, in the meditation and, you know, just, you know, and then sometimes I just have some ideas and then and, and then I will if they if I can find a photo of them with a particular pose, then that I have in mind that be excellent. If not, I will either try to search some photos online that have a similar pose, or I just take a picture of myself with the, you know, the pose or you know, a hand holding a cup or whatever, and just kind of Frankenstein the thing together.

My gosh, hold on. This is so cool. So you are using inspiration from real life people to help you kind of structure these cards. How do you choose who goes with which card? And how does that work? That’s so cool.

Yeah, because at the beginning of the author, the off the deck, I approached her Teresa and then I just had the ideas, you know, Teresa, what about because I need out, you know, and one models for our cards. Like, if I just you know, I can just paint myself or my family member – I can’t keep doing us right and right, you know, enough, you know, random people on the internet, like, you know, um, you know, how about we just do real life people do you have friends that, that they would like to be featured as a card. And then of course, Teresa knows so much people and then she and then she just so you know, this person that has mentioned a whole lot of people to refer to our cards. And then sometimes she has an idea of you know, where that person will be like for which card and sometimes we will have a you know, talk about it a bit like you say, you know this person, what do you think that, you know, she could be and I say you know, probably she feels more like a wands person. And then and then we’ll just you know, put them in in the wands and then so basically Teresa came up with a lot of, you know, referrals of the models and i and i also you know myself my daughter My friend also featured in the cards.

Sheila M  34:35  

I love that I think that’s so cool because I thought about that and I have my like first deck that I used really really regularly especially for like other people’s readings was a Star Child Tarot by Danielle, Danielle Noel and, um, you know, she’s like a visual artist. So a lot of her cards are photographs that are Then, like, designed around, like people that she knows and, and friends and stuff. So I, I think it’s so interesting because like one of the things I’ve been doing with this podcast and even that I do in regular life and I think a lot of readers do is kind of see the people in your life as different cards or see situations in life as different cards.

Lucy Morningstar  35:21  

Yeah, yeah, especially with a court cost, I think, you know, leave the court cards, you see them as a particular person that you probably know, or, or, you know, their online figures that you can just look up, you really help you, you know, tuning to understand that if you know, the card a lot more, right. Like, for example, with my queen of cups, Teresa introduced me to Sasha Grahm model, and she said, She’s a Scorpio and she’s, she will choose an actress as well. And she said, tarot reader/actress, and she has made films in those horror films like vampires, werewolves, that kind of stuff. And so that would be like the dark, like the dark side of the queen of cups. And at the same time, she’s, she’s doing a lot of, she’s done a lot of, you know, helping youth with trauma that, you know, to grow up a little self empower. And, and she’s teaching tarot and if you look at she’s like, she is like, like I said, the embodiment of both light and light and the dark. So and and she said, so intuitive. and tune in psychic, like she just, like perfect for the queen of cups. So I and the darkside and the light side as well. Right? So I think, you know, if you, you know, look at these people, you just help you understand, you know, certain archetypes more easily.

Sheila M  36:40  

Yeah. And so, um, so with doing this work, is this what you’re doing full time now you’re doing art full time? Or do you still do finance stuff as well?

Lucy Morningstar  36:50  

No, no, no, I, I didn’t do finance. I’m not doing finance anymore. Because I found that working in finance couple years, and then I’m just really not cut off for corporate. Yeah. And, and after that, when I was pregnant with my, after I gave birth to my first child, and basically, my, I started a company with my ex husband. So for couple of years, we’re doing that. And now I’m just doing it full time.

Sheila M  37:17  

Oh, that’s amazing. And so how does, how does your family and and like your friends, as you’re kind of going through this transformation from, you know, thinking it was going to be one thing in your life into this fully, like creative and intuitive self? Are they accepting? Do they not understand? Like, what’s your experience been like in that?

Lucy Morningstar  37:42  

Yeah, well, I first, of course, I think if we come from like a more traditional kind of family, of course, they wouldn’t be very supportive. Right? You would be lucky if they are very supportive, like my dad was always very supportive, when I was following his idea of where I should have been, I always aced schoolwork, and got into, you know, the top university and got into a finance degree, and then got into one of the big banks here in Australia. And that’s exactly what he wanted, like wanting to work in finance, and climb the corporate ladder to the, you know, top and that kind of things. But then when I quit the job and started, you know, doing our own business with my ex husband, he was already not very happy, because, you know, of course, I was like, he wanted me to be independent, not dependent on men, but what not even working together in this in that company. And finance, like in from the, I think the mainland Chinese traditional kind of point of view is like, where money is made? Right? Thank you to finance. You go where the money is like, why would you, you know, give up your big corporate job in the big banks to do your own little small business, it is ridiculous. So of course, he wasn’t very supportive and, and the rest of family one might be supportive. And by the time I decided to start painting, and they, and they saw that it wasn’t just as a hobby – I was taking in more and more seriously, that’s like, we like, like, you’re just gonna waste all your study in finance and all your experience in doing this, you know, it was very frowned upon and looked down on. Yeah, you know, this painting is and so, but like, my mom also issues because my mom also, my mom like means my mom’s very straightforward person, she, she always means well, but the words she used could be always very harsh. We are in so you know, she was just so stupid, ridiculous and bad and blah, blah, blah. But the thing is, well, I have custody for a couple of years now. And they see that you are not going to be persudaded way to get back to whatever they want, then they just give up trying to convince you all the time. And, and because, like, my dad still lives in China, so it’s not like he, he can try to influence me every day it was my mom is in Australia with me and at first, like we have more interaction, every time she sees my work, you would just go I first you would say, you know, you’re really not going back to banking. You know, you know, all these studies and wasted and all and all that, but now it’s been a couple of years, she’s she start to see I’ve progressed with my work. Like she can see my skills improving. And she sees that I’m just like, this is what I do now. And, and she even learn to say some nice words about my work. And, you know, that would be amazing. Surprise, Oh, nice words could ever come out of your mouth?

Sheila M  41:02  

Yeah, oh, my gosh, I know, it can be really challenging, I think. And I do think it can be like that where like it, there’s almost like this, like, they ignore that it’s happening for a little while, or give you a hard time about it a little bit. And then kind of are resigned to it, but maybe like, don’t want to talk about it really? And then like, maybe eventually say something nice?

Lucy Morningstar  41:26  

Yeah, yeah, I think you just back to we have to believe in ourselves. First, you have to have the perseverance to, um, like, like the three of swords that I always, you know, tell myself like you, even though your family kind of bash you for choosing this path, or the people that you’ve always loved, that you felt that could be your support. And that not supporting you, or even trying to take you down. If you yourself have the perseverance, eventually, if they don’t feel like they fit, they just wanted you to conform to their idea. But if you persist enough, and they see that you are actually Okay, after you’ve persisted for however long, they will come around, you know, but we have to have the perseverance and belief in ourselves, or in that path we choose first. 

Sheila M  42:18  

Yeah, and I think that was one of the things that was a challenge for me when I was kind of, you know, cutting out of the broom closet, so to speak. And I had been one person and kind of this other person in secret. And I had, like, at some point, you have to just decide to have the faith that the people who can really be there for you will go along with you. And anybody who can’t, just isn’t meant to kind of continue down this path with you. And that, like, you can’t make people you know, as much as you might want to. And so I was like really nervous about like, coming out and telling people but Funny enough, like, what everything that I made up in my head about how how it was going to be was way worse than it actually was, you know, even even down to like my my family, like when when I initially told my mother, and she did not have the best reaction but over time, like, she’s, she’s gotten better, kind of, like you said, kind of more accepting of it. And I think it’ll still probably take like a while and I don’t think she’ll ever be like totally warm to it. But I also think that at some point, you just kind of have to have that faith that the people in your life can go along with you. And I was even, I was even really nervous to talk to like my partner, because we had been at that point, I think we had been together for maybe like a year and a half, two years. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know how this is gonna go. I don’t know how this conversation is going to go. And it went fine. And I was like, Why was I so nervous about that I think we we kind of make up in our head what it’s going to be and it can be really scary, you know, and like you said, like you can hear crappy feedback from family and I think it takes a lot of resilience and a lot of bravery to really step out and and be your authentic self. And that’s why so many people don’t do it, you know?

Lucy Morningstar  44:16  

And I say well, what if we like when we try to hide like in our closet and have this to like, you know, be who we are in front of those people and then be someone else when we’re not in front of people. I think it just takes a lot of energy to continue to conceal something or to put up a different front like like you know, I think that just really use up so much energy and you probably will will feel a lot lighter. Like I said, you just come out you know, whoever is meant to come along with me then will come along with me. If not at least I don’t have to pretend anymore.

Sheila M  44:50  

Exactly and that’s what happened. I was like so exhausted from feeling like divided between two people and also trying to like hide something that was becoming more and more important, you know, huh?

Lucy Morningstar  45:05  

Yeah. And then when that thing becomes more and more important, it takes you even more energy to hide it. And you’re just being so exhausting hiding who you are like, you know, and your energy will be channeled to much more creative work, right?

Sheila M  45:20  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love. I love that, too. And so with everything that we’re talking about, um, what card do you find that you really connect with? I know, you kind of mentioned the three of swords. Is that kind of where you’re seeing yourself now? Is that where you really connect? Like, do you feel like that’s what you embody?

Lucy Morningstar  45:44  

Yeah, I think that’s the three of swords will always like, you know, it’s like with the, with all of these experiences in Tarot. It’s not like, we just go through a particular experience once and then be done with it. Right? and then we are happy. Right. So I think the three of swords will be always something that I have to remind myself along the way, like, you do something, you know, there’s gonna be heartbreak, or people might not like you or say something bad or whatever. Is this the path that you that you use? You are still, you will still choose? Right? So if you’re still choosing this, and if you have chosen in the past, you commit to it accepting that the the heartbreak that it brings, do you want to choose differently from this moment on? Well, you know, ask yourself that question and then make a decision again, like I just like, every time you make a decision, like you commit to the decision, and take 100% responsibility of whatever comes. And even if the result is not like all rainbows and daisies, right, I think I’m not about the three of swords is also a lot about taking responsibilities, like how you deal with it, so do the mental right, it’s like making a decision, and then asserting full responsibility that, that if that is your own your choice, right. Yeah, I think that’s always the case and some other concepts that I feel really connected to, I think one of them, um, one of like, for last year, it was the Empress because that was before the before the beginning of like, for a long time I like like, at the beginning of last year, I realized that I had a big resistance to receiving like, you know, receiving abundance receive receiving help from people I had this big resistance to receiving and when I receive something I kind of feel guilty without deserve it enough and that kind of thing. So when when that’s brought to my conscious because for a long time didn’t even know they had that problem. And when I say that problem, I then I decided to use the Empress to help me I’m like integrate that kind of things and and open myself up to receiving so for the Empress when I was creating the Empress card basically I just put my intention into the card as I am open to receiving from both above and below right so the Empress in the Empress card you see the sky above with the towel. So they’re science and and the trees the forest in the earth. And so it’s like you know I am open to receiving from above and below so for me the Empress you know, because it’s about creativity as well. And I am an artist and I’m a mother I’m already creating all the time, but I want to be able to create from a place where I am full and then the creativity of overflows from me instead of I have to be depleting myself. So so for the Empress is like receive fully open to receiving from above and below and for and the creativity and the nursery and everything overflows from from the fullness. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that is the one that I was actively embodying, still trying to you know, embodying but that was what my focus was on last year. And I created the Empress painting and still hangs just in my living room. And this year at the beginning of this year, like we know this is the year of the Emperor anyway so I was also actively trying to embody that the Emperor card for that for the Emperor is like, you know, the structure thing. Like I want to have you no setup because to be the emperor of your life. You have boundaries and you need to set up structures, right? You set up structures for yourself to follow for people to follow that if if everything is so scattered, there’s no sense of security, you’re not you know, um, so for me it was like, have a structure have a strategy so that you can conquer you know conquer new territory or be strong in your own domain and be the sovereign, you know, sovereign creator of your own life, you do need to have that power to say that whatever you set out that you give command to do will be accomplished. That comes from sticking to your word. And also you have to have structure, you know, for creative people, sometimes our mind go everywhere and want to be spontaneous. But I have actually found out that it’s not, it’s not productive at all, like, if, like, three years ago, you would have told me that, you know, you need to learn to plan, and you need to know what you’re doing, you know, nothing, you’re crazy. I’m more like a free spirit, I go with the flow every day. But that wasn’t very productive, productive at all. So that’s why, you know, I kind of intuitively knew the turtle provided structure. And this year, I actually plan my week, on Monday and actually follow my plan. And if you feel a sense of power as the like, like the Emperor as well, because when you give a command, so you put it in your diary, that this is what you’re going to do this week, and you are able to take it off and accomplish them. You feel sovereign, right? Oh, my God. It’s not like you’re so powerless, you can’t do anything that you promised yourself that you will do. You, when you’re actually sticking a word and accomplish everything that you tell yourself, they like set out to do, like, put on a comment. And that gets accomplished, you feel more powerful. And I think that was with, um, in your safe, we do spell crafting anything. I think that really is important. Because what when you do any kind of spells, basically, you say something, you want that thing to happen. But if you just put something in your diary, and you can’t accompanies that, how strong is your word, without the skill? Right. So if I had given power to your word,

Sheila M  52:04  

yeah, and I think I’m sure, especially as a mother now too that a certain amount of being able to have creative time relies on that structure, because you do have children, and you do have all these other demands on your time. And I think that’s one of the things that I’ve really realized this year, in our Emperor year, as well as that, even when you are doing creative tasks, you have to be setting yourself up, whether you channel or whatever it is, with some sort of structure, or it’s very easy for things to just kind of shift all over the place. And like you said, like, I think a lot of us want to be just kind of like a free spirit and do whatever feels good today. But one of the things I experienced, especially when I first started because I do readings, and one on one sessions, I started just saying yes to like whenever people want it to come in, and I was like, Oh, this isn’t gonna work. Because I don’t I don’t have any consistent time to work on any workshops or courses that I want to offer Because I have appointments all over the place, you know, so I’ve had to like structure and set hours and really hold to those hours, because that’s what helps me get a lot of other stuff done. And in the beginning, I was just feeling like kind of burnt out and overwhelmed. Yeah, i was doing things all willy nilly, you know?

Lucy Morningstar  53:23  

Yeah. And when we don’t have the structures, we just spend so much of our energy trying to figure out what to do in the moment. If you just because, you know, when, before I started to plan, I think you know, why spend an hour also planning rather than you can just go through the work already, like, why do I sit an hour and my desk planning my week, I could just start my painting already, like, you know, that’s in the time wasted. But then once you really start getting like to anyone who does not plan, I was not one of the people who ever plan. But once you start doing it, you realize that at any time of the week, you don’t have to go through your brain and try to figure out what do I do now? What do I do now? Or should I do this? Or should I do that? Oh, I have this idea here. Go here. Like you don’t have to spend the energy. The brainwaves are trying to figure out anything you just pick up your your diary and say, This is what I do, you know, exactly actually saves a lot of energy. And you don’t feel scattered, you feel more focused. And like it like you know, if we don’t care, like just think about the days. How many times do you get to the end of the day, then you feel Oh, gosh, I haven’t accomplished anything. Right. So once we have a plan that rarely happens.

Sheila M  54:39  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s so true. And I think it’s really important. I love that I, I love the idea of that like three of swords and how you’re kind of working with the cards of the year also, I think that’s really cool and, and really brings kind of a different level to like the card that you embody. yourself too, because it’s like, how does how does the three of swords come in and and meet up with the Emperor? Like, how do you work with both of those, and or see the Emperor through the lens of the three of swords and everything. I think it’s really cool. Um, so I know you have a couple projects that you’re working on right now I know, um, can you tell us a little bit about what you’re working on? I know, you kind of touched on it a little bit more how people can kind of find out or follow along with your projects, and where they can kind of find you online?

Lucy Morningstar  55:31  

Yeah, sure. I am on Instagram, you know, and my website is Lucy Morningstar dot art. And that is also my handle on Instagram. So people can just find me there and see, you know, my paintings for the tower that I’m working on. And also the Modern love Tarot that I’ve created for ethony. And that’s going to come out in November and if not already available for pre order. So I am working on my data at the moment. And I’ve also contributed a card the seven of cups or seven of waters to the 78 Tarot, you know, I’m Katie and Chase, they make lovely deck every year. So I’m very happy to be invited to their project this year. And I also have an Etsy shop, if you can come and you know, buy some of my Tarot prints. And I think they are just wonderful archetypes that, for example, I hang my Emperor and Empress in my studio and my office, like one big living room space every day, because I think when I look at them, my subconscious mind can I don’t have to put into words that I want to start checking, I want to be open to receiving just because I put in that intention when creating that work. So every time I look at it, I just know that what like what, what it meant, like my I don’t have to think about it, like your right brain or your subconscious picks up. And title is such, you know, those are like, you know, what, I think young cause the collective unconscious. And we’ll probably call it the archetypes because this is the collective archetypes. Like, when the parent is such a meaningful and strong tool, I think he’s because he has a lot of people’s collective energies, like the collective archetypes. And when you use that, I think, you know, for example, if, if you want to like the audience, if you think about, you know, what you want to embody, you know, instead of just like the conventional vision boards, I think, even more effective way will be using the Tarot as your vision board. So if you want to impress the Empress, you know, be more creative, and be more open to receiving abundance of that kind of stuff, you can just, you know, print your own picture, put it you know, and collage the things that you want into an empress car, and then put it somewhere that you can see every day I because I think it is your vision board. But at the same time, you’re tapping into the archetype of the Tarot a very strong a powerful collective energy. And, and, and see how that shifts your unconscious or your subconscious.

Sheila M  58:14  

i think that you know, for how you phrase that because when the artist is creating that card, they are infusing that energy with the work and then to have that in your space where you’re doing that, like you said, it’s almost like a spell that you’re kind of casting over the space and you’re drawing in on that energy. That’s so beautiful.

Lucy Morningstar  58:35  

Yes, it’s definitely spell and and if you’re actively doing it, like just collaging your photos, you actually like, you know, infusing your own intentions into that. And every time you look at it, it like it just sinks deeper, I think into your subconscious. And our subconscious is much more powerful than our conscious mind. 

Sheila M  58:55  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, well, thank you so much for taking this time. Today, I will share in our show notes and everything and on the show notes page of my website, how to get in contact with you how to follow you and everything. But I just want to thank you so much for doing this today. This is such a nice chat, and this is the first time we’ve met. So and this is a lot of fun. And I really feel like um, you shared so much of your experience, and I know that it will help other people who maybe come from a similar backgrounds and don’t have that kind of support, or are going through their own kind of turmoil with mental health and looking for ways to kind of channel that into something productive and helpful.

Lucy Morningstar  59:41  

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Sheila.

Sheila M  59:46  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you love today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives Feel free to To share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit, and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Can You Grow Your Intuition

Can You grow your intuition

In episode 14 of Living Tarot,  I discuss exactly why it’s so difficult for so many of us to tune into intuition. I truly believe that intuition is like a muscle and the more we use it and learn to tune into it, the stronger it will become.

  • I speak about the institutions that keep us from tuning into ourselves and our own intuition and what we can do about it.
  • I discuss ways to start to bring an embodied awareness to your intuition when it shows up for you and what that looks like.
  • I explain which messages are more likely to come through even if you don’t consider yourself to be intuitive.
  • Finally I discuss what steps can get you started in learning more about your intuition and how to access and strengthen our intuition in daily life.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing, empower yourself through intuition, and live intentionally with the tarot. 

 Welcome back to living Tarot. Welcome to October, I can’t even believe it. I’ve made it to the second month of this podcast. It has been such a joy to interview so many people to talk about these things that have been bouncing around my head for months for years, really. And I’m super happy to do it. And thank you to all of you who have left us five star reviews and given great feedback and asked questions and given me ideas for future episodes. I’m incredibly grateful for all of your support. And I’m I’m really excited to be doing this. And I have many, many more wonderful episodes, and wonderful guest episodes planned. So I’m very excited. So today, I wanted to get into October with a topic that is very near and dear to my heart, and a little bit witchy in line with this month. I’m kind of bringing the focus in the month of October into intuition. And I really love this topic, it was part of the main theme that I wanted to follow in terms of how I wanted this podcast to be formatted. What I wanted to talk about to people a lot because I do see how there are a lot of misconceptions in the world, about intuition. So in particular, today, we are going to talk about the idea that you can grow your intuition. I get a lot of questions about this in classes that I’ve done random DMS, on Instagram, other places, basically anywhere where I’ve spoken about intuition, I’ve received a flood of questions about Is it this? Is it that how do I know? How can I strengthen it? How can I increase it? And I just born this way, can I I can’t do what you can do. And if you’ve found yourself in that place where you are looking at somebody else, who identifies as intuitive and comparing yourself and thinking that you don’t have a talent, because you don’t see everything in the same way that they do, I’m really gonna encourage you to rethink that idea. Because there are so many different ways that we connect to our intuition. There’s absolutely not a one size fits all approach. That is not my approach at all, what I found from talking to countless friends who are in intuitive fields, and even those who are in business, corporate, entities, finance, all have some sort of connection to intuition. And the way that their intuition works is all a little bit different. And even myself the way that my gifts work is different than most of the other readers that I know. So when we talk about intuition, we’re really talking about that impulse. And I really define intuition. As you know, it is really just a conversation with your higher self. It’s signals that come from within you, that may or may not make logical sense based on the information you’re being presented with. I noticed that in our society, it can in the United States could sometimes be gendered a bit, which I don’t like like a woman’s intuition, which I think is really just fear of men, if I’m being honest. So I did want to talk about this a little bit today because it is not just for women. It’s not just for men. It’s not just for people who identify as binary Any, any gender at all can be intuitive. And I hate the idea of taking it away from one gender or all genders, because it’s just a, “woman’s” thing. That’s definitely not true. And there’s a couple of reasons why I think that has been strengthened over time. 

And so it’s not really our fault that we don’t really grow up developing intuition. Most of us, that’s not true for all of us. But for most of us, and that is because in the Western world, you grow up, you go to school, maybe you go to church, and every single thing that you do from the time that you are young, until the time that you are an adult, is learn from outside of yourself. You go to school, and you learn math, and science and reading and literature and politics and all these different things. And then you maybe you go to church, and you learn about religion, and somebody tells you all these things, and this person, seemingly in power, so you’ve always got this teacher, passing their version of the message down to you, and you are taught from a very young age, to seek wisdom outside of yourself. And this is important.

Because we’ve all been indoctrinated in this way to seek this wisdom from outside of ourselves. So nobody is teaching, you know, first graders, third graders, you know, connect with your feelings connect with your body. How do you feel right now? What what are you sensing? What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel, that isn’t something that is in mainstream curriculum, and only in the past few years with starting to bring in some stress management activities into schools, like yoga and meditation and mindfulness practices, that we’ve really seen any kind of choice to give autonomy back to children and their education, and outside of your political views, and whether you think that that is the right thing or the wrong thing. What it does, when we’re putting all this power into the hands of a teacher, or a priest, or a rabbi, or a Sunday school teacher, is that it disempowers us and it takes away that ability that we all have that we’ve all have the ability to cultivate over time, and it gives it to someone else. And so we need to seek that wisdom from someone else. It can be problematic in other ways as well, especially if for those in communities that are traditionally marginalized, are not seeing something reflective of their own experience, because it’s not taught in mainstream curriculums.

Or there’s, there’s a lot of issues overall. But basically, what it really comes down to is that we are taught that wisdom comes from outside of ourselves. And so it is normal as we grow older, that we’re always looking for logic and reason and, and somebody outside of ourselves to confirm something for us. Because we haven’t been given that sense of empowerment, and agency to understand that we do have intuition. And we do have this voice underneath everything that is telling us what to do and what not to do. And what’s a good idea and what’s not such a good idea. So that said, it really starts with recognition. And if I asked most people, if they thought they were intuitive, they would probably say no, I make bad choices all the time, or Oh no, you should see the last four guys I’ve dated. I’m definitely not intuitive. But I would challenge them and say, how have you ever had the experience, you know, where you’re on a first date with someone and they are perfectly nice and sweet and thoughtful, and have been a perfectly wonderful date. And you just know, you just there’s no logical reason for you to not like them. They’re very attractive. you’re attracted to them. You seem to have chemistry, but you just know that it’s not the right thing. Or perhaps you’ve had the experience of meeting somebody, and feeling creeped out or on edge right away, what we normally pay more attention to and are more likely to notice are the fear, or know signals that we get from our intuition. And it’s very important to notice that because I’ve had so many people in my high priestess workshop where I teach about intuition, who have come come in and said, like, I really don’t feel like I have a connection at all. And when we start talking about this, they say, Oh, my gosh, this is the weirdest thing. I met this guy. He was really nice. Like, he was really charming. And then I just I had this feeling and I didn’t have any reason to feel that way. But he asked me out, and I said, No, and I just, you know, No, thank you. And, and then he ended up attacking one of my friends Later that year, or something like that. And there’s no, there’s no context for you to think that. But you just you could feel it in your body, or you just got that sense, or that gut feeling. So many people describe that that gut feeling. And so it really starts with, where you feel it in your body, and for so many of us because that no, or that scary thing is easier to identify. It’s easier to start there. And to say, okay, where do I feel that when I feel like no, like, what’s, what does that feel like in my body, what sensations are coming up, and this is why I talk so much about the importance of embodiment. Because as human beings and a human body, it is the first experience we have, and it is the one that we will bring most attention to the quickest. And so when we start to identify that feeling, we can also start to identify the opposite, which sometimes can get interfered with I know. I’m going to talk about intuition and anxiety, I think on the next episode or a future episode. And that’s a big one for people they think I can’t hear, I can’t even hear my intuition over my anxiety, my anxiety so bad. And I know exactly what you mean. Because we’ve all experienced it. And I think we’ve all experienced it to the max this year. But it really comes down to being able to start identifying the the know, and then being able to start identifying the guests, and then starting to mitigate some of the other things that come up. 

So when we have that fear piece come up, you know, what’s going on in the body then too, because that’s also important. And the more that we can bring these signals into the body and recognize them, the more that we can start to actually have the experience of tuning in once we get that signal and say, Hey, what’s going on? I’m getting this weird signal and I don’t I don’t know what to do. And just pause because sometimes, it’s just in that second that we give ourselves to pause, that we we calm down enough that we can start to feel what’s actually going on, or we can start to hear or see something that we weren’t seeing before. 

Hey there, did you know that I offer virtual tarot readings over zoom? Tarot is for you. If you’re at a crossroads and want to see your current challenge clearly, navigate complex decisions and plan how to move forward with competence. Sometimes our emotions can get in the way of a seen a clear path forward. And tarot acts as a neutral bystander that provides information and insight into our blind spots. I work with so many clients on business readings, decision making in business, and in career, working towards promotions, getting insight on how to make the best moves. I also work with a lot of people on relationship readings, getting insight into both interpersonal relationships, and professional relationships. And I do year ahead readings as well. So you can celebrate your business’s birthday by getting some insight on the energy of the year ahead. What projects to focus on what to put on the backburner. These can be really potent and powerful offerings that provide you with a lot of insight to focus your energy for the year ahead. And right now I’m also offering Virtual Tarot parties. We have all experienced zoom fatigue, we’re tired of staring at each other and having drinks over zoom. But Tarot parties are a great option to celebrate life’s rites of passage while staying safe and socially distant. If you’re interested, check out the link in the show notes today. Head over to 

So on a personal level, I grew up very intuitive. And I had very strong what we would call Claireaudience, so clear hearing. And I would hear things, which is like, it’s a strange sensation to describe because I’m not physically hearing something, it’s more like it comes into my brain as if I’m hearing something. And so I would hear the way, or like the vibration, I guess that was around people. So I would lay in bed at night and say that I was listening to the air to hear who was going to come upstairs next in my house. And I wasn’t listening for sounds or footprints or smells, or anything like that, I was listening to that vibration that the air made, when they were near, which is what it’s like to recognize an auric field. So, you know, you might have that experience where you walk into, you know, the house that you grew up in, and you can tell that somebody else is there or somebody visiting, maybe you had that experience as a kid. And I would also have the experience of something that happens, I won’t say frequently, but happens quite a bit is that I will have people come up to me and say, like, Oh, I didn’t want to be around you because like, I was upset and like I didn’t, I didn’t want you to read me. And I first of all, I will say, I will never read you. I have really strong boundaries and ethics around reading people who haven’t asked for a reading. But more importantly, most people are genuine. And so when they come up to me, and they say, Hi, Sheila, how are you, it’s so good to see you. They mean it. And so I won’t really notice anything, because there’s no dissonance between how they are feeling truly, and the message that they are sending across to me. So their energy and their words match up with each other, so I won’t notice. But if they come up to me and say, Hi, Sheila, how are you, it’s so good to see you. And their energy is saying I don’t want to see you at all, I think you’re a bitch, then that’s a completely different story. And right away, I would notice that something was off because again, it’s it’s that like negative signal. And so I would pick up on that dissonance between the facade that’s being presented, and the true vibration of of that person’s energy. So I realized that’s like, a lot. And we’re getting a little bit off on a tangent, but I did want to talk about that, because that’s what my experience has been like, and I have a lot of times where I will have that sensation of hearing something or feeling something off of somebody, I don’t see auras, or I don’t usually see things around people in a traditional, you know, visual way. But I do get a sense of that from from hearing and from, from feeling a little bit. 

And so your experience might be completely different. For some people, they get like a physical feeling. So they might sit next to somebody who’s having a terrible headache, and start getting a terrible headache, and then walk away and feel fine, you know, or they might, they might smell get it get a smell that like reminds them of something. Or they might just kind of have a sense that something is there that they can’t quite describe just kind of a knowing, which can be the hardest one to trust, at least in my experience, because that’s like really surrendering over to, to your intuition in a very full way. So, like I said, it really starts with that sense of embodiment and bringing it into your body, noticing that gut feeling noticing the “Nos”, and then starting to notice the yes are starting to notice that dissonance that you might pick up on around people. 

And also, it is worth mentioning here that one of the best things to do and I’m sure you’re not going to want to hear it because for years I did not want to hear it is meditation is extremely helpful if you are trying to develop intuition. And I don’t just mean sitting quietly by yourself in total silence with a timer. That’s not what I mean. I mean, giving yourself whatever it is that helps You to kind of switch into your brain’s background mode to try to like clear things up. So for some people, it might be qui Gong, or yoga, or even running sometimes, or a lot of people like a walking meditation, just walking in nature, but allowing that time where you’re not distracted. So where you’re not looking at your phone, or you’re not writing down your grocery list, or you’re not shifting around and talking to a friend, where you’re truly silent and listening deeply to what’s coming up, I, I can’t remember where I read it. But in a book earlier this year, and I’m a Sagittarius rising. So I read like three books at a time. So I can’t remember exactly what book it was. But the author said that if prayer is asking for something, meditation is the listening for the answer. And I thought that was so beautiful, because you really do need both, you need to have some sort of intention, it doesn’t need to be a traditional prayer, but some sort of intention that you kind of put out, and you can just sit and listen. Sure, that’s wonderful. But for a lot of people, it can be really helpful to feel like they’re actually starting to get some sort of intuitive feedback, if they do set some sort of intention.

And it doesn’t mean that you will sit down, and suddenly you will get the answer to the universe of all the things that you were trying to figure out. But sometimes these little, you know, these little like lightning bolts of intuition will come in in just a quick little flash, and offer you some insight that you didn’t have before. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, I’m not talking about like 40 minute sessions, or hour long sessions or twice a day or anything like that, it might be the seven minutes that you have before your kids wake up. Or it might be, you know, the 10 minutes before your next conference call, just allowing that stuff to kind of flow through and notice what comes up. And I really do encourage this, especially for people who are feeling like they’re blocked creative people, especially, who maybe are like sitting down to write something or paint something, or sculpt something and just feeling a little stuck. It’s almost like letting all those thoughts run their course. And then sitting and seeing what comes after that is like resetting everything you’re hitting like the reset button on your brain. And when you do that, you can slowly over time, start to hone it and start to recognize when those answers are coming in. 

So one of the things that has come up for me is that when I hear that, you know, reply, if you want to call it that, and it often sounds like my own voice. But it there’s a different quality about it. Or it might use words that I don’t typically use or a an intonation or a pattern of speaking, that I don’t normally use. And so I’ll start to notice it because I feel it, you know, first I get that that signal that I need to tune in and listen. And then I listen. And as I’m listening, I wait for that sensation that I feel when something is coming through. And once I feel that I really hone in on what what message is coming through and what information is coming in. But when we come and talk about meditation and intuition, it’s really about patience and waiting, and waiting for that message to come through. Because it’s not going to happen every time. You might sit down over and over and ask about the same thing and not feel like you’re getting a reply for quite a while. It’s not our job to know everything. But when we use this, we start to notice how it can help us outside of that practice as well. Because when you start practicing intuition is like a muscle. And so the more that you practice, the more that you train, the stronger that muscle gets. And very quickly, you will be able to drop into that part of your body where you feel that message coming through where you feel that intuitive impulse and pay attention just for a second, you might be in the middle of your day and just get like a quick little nudge from your from your stomach or from your chest or wherever it is. And just pause for a second and and listen and see what’s coming up. Because it’s in those moments where I’ve had the most profound answers or these kind of insights that were really powerful. really needed and sometimes that I didn’t know that I needed. And it’s also important to mention that your intuition will give you the answers and the insights that you need. But that doesn’t mean that they will be the ones that you want. And so to not consider it a failure, if you’re not getting exactly what you want to start out with, it does take time, but you can hone it, and some of us will have a really strong ability to read character. So maybe you you just know people and you just get it, maybe your intuition is creative. And you can just kind of see the painting, I think they said Michelangelo could just like see the sculpture inside of the stone. And, and, and that requires a great amount of of creativity and intuition to to just kind of step forward and start carving that out. And, and you don’t have to be, you know, the greatest in your field to do that. But it will come up in your life in different ways. Maybe you have a job offer. Or you could stay in your current role. Or maybe there’s like a promotion and a lateral move, and you can’t quite figure out which one is actually better. And you just kind of tune into your gut for a second. And you’re like, I know, if I go work for that other guy, I’m going to be frustrated. So I’m going to take, you know, I’m going to take the lateral move instead of the promotion, because I just know our personalities won’t go. But it helps you to get out of just doing things, because the world expects you to or because you have to be logical. I know and you truly can grow it over time. There are so many amazing ways to start to do this. I’ve just given you a few today. But there are, I mean, countless countless ways to get in touch with your intuition. And it can be an extremely powerful force in your life. In whatever you do. You don’t have to be a spiritual or witchy person to get a huge benefit out of tuning into your intuition. Because it will also keep you safe. It will keep you living the most authentic version of your life, instead of doing things to please other people. It gives you a great sense of understanding of yourself, and what motivates you.

So I hope that this helped you a little bit today, get some ideas about how to start to grow your intuition. I will be working on something over the next couple months. I’m not sure exactly when it will be coming out. But I am in the process of creating something around intuition, because I do get a lot of questions and a lot of requests about it. And I do work with people one on one on intuition development. So if you are interested, you can reach out to me personally. And yeah, I I’m excited to continue to share some of these episodes with you to break up some of the fact and fiction about intuition that’s out there. And I would love your feedback. You know, if there’s anything that you would like me to cover that I haven’t covered yet, if there are any, if there’s anything you would hope I would cover in the future or talk about a little bit more. Or if you heard something on this episode that you wish that I would talk about in depth, please don’t hesitate to reach out to me and let me know. I am interested in whatever you are interested in. And this podcast, as much as it is a joy for me is really to help you feel more connected and less alone in your own intuitive journey. So that’s all I have for you this week. I will see you back here next week. 

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned what surprised you and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode show notes, you can head over to

Plant Magic, Embracing Patience on a Career Journey, & Embodying the 7 & 8 of Pentacles with Amanda Midkiff

In episode 13 of Living Tarot, I speak with Amanda Midkiff about her journey into teaching plant magic. Amanda is the herbalist and plant witch of Locust Light Farm in New Jersey. Through classes both on her farm and online, she helps folks experience the magic and medicine of the plant world and the transformative power of plant magic. She also hosts rituals for the seasonal holidays. Amanda delights in mosses, loves delicious bevs, and heartily believes in gnomes.  We discuss how hard it can be to gracefully let go of career plans even when you know it’s right.

  • We chat about how Amanda’s training in herbalism has brought even deeper meaning and understanding to her plant magic practice
  • Amanda and I discuss what plant medicine is and how to work magically with plants.
  • We discuss how intuition led Amanda on a very spiraled career journey from wanting to be an agricultural lawyer to a veggie farmer to a plant witch and teacher.
  • We also discuss how Amanda said her business up to move her closer and closer towards the perfect job for her.
  • Amanda also speaks to how to start to develop your own plant magic and how to accept what speaks to you and what doesn’t without being appropriative.

Connect with Sheila:

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Get access to Amanda’s Plant Magic for beginners here  –

Take Amanda’s Which Plant Ally do You Need Right Now Quiz here

Find Amanda Online at or on Instagram at

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium, and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition, and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing and power yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot. 

Welcome back to Living Tarot. This week, I am joined by the lovely and talented Amanda Midkiff. Amanda is the herbalist and plant witch of Locust Light Farm in New Jersey. Through classes both on her farm and online, she helps folks experience the magic and medicine of the plant world and the transformative power of plant magic. She also hosts rituals for the seasonal holidays. Amanda delights in mosses, loves delicious bevs, and hardily believes in gnomes. Amanda and I are friends from a business program that we did together. And we really bonded over magic and intuition and really learning to believe in your own personal power. We also had a really great conversation in this episode about how Amanda really embodies the Pentacles in and patience in a lot of ways lousing things to grow allowing things to thrive really learning the answers. importance of getting to know plants in order to work with their magic, and having the patience to learn to do something well. So I hope you enjoy this week’s episode. Let’s dive right in. 

Welcome, Amanda. I’m so excited to have you here today. And again, another one of my internet friends turned real life friends who I had the good fortune to actually be able to see socially distant and in person a week or so ago, which was really nice because we live relatively close to each other. So welcome to the show. Can you tell us a little bit aboutwho you are and what you do? 

Amanda Midkiff  2:45  

Thanks, Sheila. I’m so happy to be here and it was great to meet you in person the other week. And I’m Amanda. I’m an herbalist in plant which and I run a small teaching garden called Locust Light Farm. And I, at Locust Light, I teach herbalism classes, I teach plant magic classes, I lead rituals for the seasonal holidays. And I also teach online plant magic classes. So my business takes place both on the farm in Central New Jersey, and also online. 

Sheila M  3:20  

So cool. I love I love what you do, because it’s, it’s told it’s something that’s been totally new to me since like getting to know you and your work. Like, I have never heard of plant magic or anything like that before. I started reading, reading about all of your offerings and everything, and we were in a business program together. And that’s when I kind of started to learn about all of this. So for anybody who’s not familiar with plant magic, can you tell us like a little bit more about what that is?

Amanda Midkiff  3:51  

Yeah, definitely. I would describe plant magic as working with the spiritual aspect of plants to make shit happen in your life. You know, I do come I’m first an herbalist. And so, you know, for a number of years now I’ve worked with plants to make medicine. And to me working with plants to make magic is like linking arms with them as a friend and ally and joining your efforts toward a specific project or a specific goal or a specific change that you would like to make. And so, I think that plant magic is, it’s great if you are someone who’s already an herbalist or already a plant person, and you’re interested in magic, then plant like working with plants. And when you play with that magic makes a lot of sense. And if you’re someone who already is interested in magic, like you’re already doing spells, and personal ritual and things like that, then bringing plants in can make your magic more potent because plants themselves are so powerful.

Sheila M  4:58  

I love that. I think that’s really beautiful and I, I love plants. I’ve got a couple in the background here. But I didn’t like grow up in a household where we had a lot of definitely not a lot of indoor plants. Now my parents have like, pretty substantial garden for how big their hous is and everything and they, they enjoy, you know, kind of changing it up a little bit every year and stuff, which I think is cool. But did you have an upbringing where you were kind of introduced to plants young? How did that kind of come about to you or did you just always connect with that?

Amanda Midkiff  5:33  

I, I would say mostly Yes. But not – well this is what I would say. We grew up so my mom’s family were dairy farmers. And so my sister and I were younger, we just spent, like, what I felt like all our free time on the dairy farm, which meant a lot of time in the forest. And there were a few herbs that my mom says to me were young like Empty leaf for healing wounds which is not the relative of banana it’s like a plant that grows in lawns and grassy areas. And my sister and I definitely like played around with planting leaf and dandelion leaf and we spent a lot of time in the forest playing with moss and, you know, we had a willow tree we really liked and we did have a garden for like, one or two years when I was very young. But I didn’t grow up vegetable gardening or like working with herbs in any, like broad or, you know, varied type of way. And it wasn’t until I was in college, that I started working on a vegetable farm that I really began working-  like into what I feel like interacting with plants in a really meaningful way. You know, I’m as I said, My mom’s family were dairy farmers when I was growing up, we always had like, a little farm it so like I grew up with so many animals like indoor pets outdoor farm hobby animals into it just never. I think plants weren’t on my horizon like the reason I started veggie farming was not because I wanted. Like I had any interest in veggie farming it was because I was planning on going to law school to work with agricultural trade issues. And I wanted to advocate for Mexican and Central American growers rights. And so I thought, Oh, well, I know what it feels like to be dependent on animals for your livelihood, but I don’t know what it feels like to be dependent on veggies. So I should learn what it feels like because the people for whom I want to advocate will be people whose lives are dependent on veggies. But then once I started farming, I was hooked in. I would say I didn’t stop but right now, I’m not really farming anymore. I’ve got like a large garden. Yeah. So I have stopped, but I still I’m just like very addicted to that feeling of working outside.

Sheila M  7:56  

Yeah, yeah, I can I can see that. Kind of in, you know in following your work and everything like how much that is rejuvenating for you as well. So that was kind of your introduction. How did you make the transition into herbalism and plant magic? Like what kind of made you decide to go from wanting to be a lawyer to wanting to be an herbalist and then a plant which?

Amanda Midkiff  8:28  

Well, it’s a spiral path. Yes. Okay. The first major decision I made was to not be a lawyer but instead to become a farmer. So, so I ended up working on veggie farms throughout college and then after college and I decided, Okay, no law school, clearly I want to be a veggie farmer. But while I was a veggie farmer at the first farm I worked at someone taught me to work with nettles and how to harvest nettles and how to like, offer gratitude to a plant and all And I at the time had a lot of indoor allergies. And I was like, always disgusting like I was like always blowing my nose and you know, when you’re like in school, you’re just in the moldy buildings with cleaning products and so I was just like always so sneezy and nettle made me remarkably less sneezy. And so I became like this metal evangelist and, and I started just reading everything I could about herbs and getting my hands on old herb books. I started making tinctures and I started making body oils and actual, like medicinal infusions. And I was doing that for years. And then at some point, as I was a veggie farmer, I knew that it wasn’t quite the right path for me, but I was had a lot of angst. Like I didn’t know what the right path was. And I had this revelation that I care so much about local food, but when I go to make my herbal products, I’m going online to buy them and they Come there little plastic bag from the internet. And so I decided to start an herb farm. And I started Locust Light as a farm. And so for the first two years I was growing herbs for wholesale. didn’t quite make it to that level. But I in theory was growing herbs for wholesale, but an herbal products CSA. So I was making products. I was really like Locust Light was a farm that was producing herbs for sale. 

Sheila M  10:24  

Right, right. 

Amanda Midkiff  10:25  

And then two years into that I realized that not only did I like teaching more, but it was easier for me to make money doing that, which was important because I was really struggling in that department. And so I moved the farm to a different property that could be accessed by the public and changed my business to focus on teaching. Last year I started incorporating online classes. I guess I’d like eased into the plant magic. It began with honoring the seasonal holidays the the eight holidays around the Wheel of the Year. And then it just developed from there. I found a book, there was one point I was at like the depths of existential environmental despair. And I found two books actually one was about it was like rituals for each of the seasonal holidays. And then another one was a book about making magic with plants and they really, you know, blew my world open and, and also for me like working with plants to make magic has helped soothe a lot of existential despair. Definitely, it’s not gone. For me, like working with plants magically helps them a lot.

Sheila M  11:48  

Yeah, you’re speaking us something that I think is really interesting to how you described shifting away from the veggie farming and to the herbal farming and it’s kind of like allowing all of these, like you were saying this kind of spiralic journey where we kind of have a death of something and then it’s reborn as something new. And then that dies off in like, every time even though it is the right thing it can feel so uncomfortable and so painful and like you were saying, like an existential crisis of – well if I’m not that now Then what am I?

Amanda Midkiff  12:22  

Yeah, it was very hard for me to let go the identity of being a farmer, not just the identity, but also the lifestyle. I mean, obviously, being a farmer is grueling. It is an endurance marathon, it’s very difficult. So it wasn’t like, well, you get so used to those specific rhythms and your life becomes seasonal, truly seasonal. And my life is still able to be quite seasonal, but not in the same way. You know, and when you stop working with those same types of crops, you lose that like, Oh, this is the like, you know, This is June and we are snapping garlic scapes and picking sugar snap peas. And so the My whole body understands that it’s June and because of that, but also just like the identity like, I, I have this little axe to grind, which is like, I feel like you are not a farmer unless your livelihood is dependent on what you’re growing. Right? A lot of people like to call themselves farmers, even if they have a garden, you know, and that that always bothered me and still does because I feel like, you know, to get credit for being a farmer, you should actually be fully invested. Um, and so to acknowledge to myself that I am just going to be someone who has a garden, which was never something I was interested in. And even even just to like, last year, as I was reevaluating my business in a big way I realized, like even a big garden is something that can take all of your spare energy and causes a lot of guilt and a lot of stress. You know, it’s like a whole living ecosystem. Yeah. And but I realized it wasn’t making me money. And it has essentially become like the elaborate backdrop for everything else that I do. So I realized two things. One, I needed to find ways to make the garden more of a source of income in a way or like leverage the existence of the garden. And to I need to find ways to make the garden remarkably less stressful. And I have done both those things this year, which I’m very proud of in the garden is now a source of joy and play for me and it’s not a source of guilt and stress.

Sheila M  14:38  

Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that’s really hard and I’m glad you’re speaking about that as well. Because I think when we do work that is spiritual or healing or however you like to identify, there is this idea that like there somehow needs to be suffering involvedor something. Do You know what I mean? Like some some like puritanical, patriarchal stuff wrapped up in that. But I also think that what you’re talking about is really interesting because I think sometimes when people hear it needed to be a source of income for me, because it’s your job like some people are like, I think have like a response to that where they feel very like put off about people charging and finding ways to economize what they’re already doing. But I think it’s important to speak to that too, because I think it’s our, our mentor, Sarah, who says, like, if you’re not making money with your business, then you just have an expensive hobby. Like, you’re not

Amanda Midkiff  15:45  

Yeah, a very expensive hobby and like, yeah, I think especially in the healing professions, and maybe I’ll just speak to herbalism or even food farming. If there’s just this level where people just think that it’s everything should just be free. You know, like, no matter how many Your CSA share costs, it’s too much money or no matter how much that bunch of kale costs, it’s too much money. Because like all food should just be free. And like, I get that people need access, but like, it can’t be free if the people who are growing it are not even making a living wage. You know, that’s not what is that’s not food justice. And with any of the healing professions, there’s this idea that it should just be free and it’s like, Okay, well, like it costs me money to lease this land. Thankfully, my landlords aren’t charging me rent right now to do COVID. But like, cost money to lease the land, it costs money to buy the seeds, it costs money to plant the stuff, it costs money to have the tools it costs money to have the baskets, the insurance, like all of those things cost money and so money just is part of this situation, you know, it’s not and even if people are able to get land donated for a garden, okay, you know, those people are paying a mortgage or they’re paying taxes or they’re paying, you know, it’s like it’s all being supported by the entity. That is money. And so, you know, money needs to be flowing into that vessel too. It can’t just be flowing out.

Sheila M  17:06  

Exactly, exactly. And I think that’s really important. And also that your energy and your time and your training like the the time, the energy, the wisdom, the learning that it takes to be able to do something like cultivate land and grow plants and be able to sustainably do that over time, not just like once is also something that you’ve invested heavily in, either through training or experience or both. Mm hmm. Yeah. Which I think is really important. And one of the things I run into a lot too and even in my own mental ability to be able to like charge for my work and stuff is like to move away from just being like an hour of my time is worth this because also I’ve spent money on my own training and A lot of experience now at this point and, and continue to learn entering and and everything. And I think it’s really important that people recognize that and especially with what you do, because there is such like an incubation period between when you we put something in into action and when it actually pays off or for lack of a better term.

Amanda Midkiff  18:25  

Oh yeah. Especially with perennial plants. Something that helped me was a few years ago, I was talking to another at time local herbalist , who said that she was starting like a tea line and figuring out how much money to charge. And she pointed out that the things that we feel like we shouldn’t spend money on like, vegetables or herbs or healing services, like are things that typically like historically fell in the hands of women. And it’s just like another aspect of the devaluing of like women’s labor in a way and that made me angry, which Which has helped me to be feel good about charging money because I’m like, that’s shit like it is especially like, healing or nurturing or even just like doing emotional labor for other people that is labor that traditionally women doing and so, so people don’t value it. So yeah, I’m gonna charge money.

Sheila M  19:18  

Yeah, yeah. And I think I think it’s really important. It’s so funny because I’m like, everything kind of takes its own its own turn in these interviews, but I’m like, it’s so funny that we’re talking about this because it also goes with the card that I that I had in mind for you as well, which we’ll talk a little bit but yeah, no. But, um, but I do think this is really cool. So, so you found you found those two books that kind of helped you get introduced to all of this, but how much of what you have learned has been through that and through training and through like your traditional herbalist training and how much of it has been your personal journey of really learning that stuff on your own? Like how has that grown over time?

Amanda Midkiff  20:09  

Definitely a combination. So I absolutely have studied herbalism with a variety of teachers like that I feel is very important. And in terms of magic and spirituality, like I worked with one shamanic teacher I’ve studied with and that I have another shamanic teacher I should be studied with like, less but still have also studied with you know, and then I, I certainly like read a lot. Something that I something that I like about working with magic and calling it magical witchcraft is that to me, it is like the least appropriative way to work spiritually with herbs, because the traditions that I draw from European traditions and so in that like is very important to me.

But the another way to make Not being appropriative is to like, again, like you were saying have your own personal experiences. And so for me, the plants I work with magically are plants almost exclusively that grow in my garden or in a wild way near my garden. And it’s very important to me that I have my own personal relationship magically with those plants before I teach them. So they’re plants that I’ve maybe grown for a number of years harvested had their tea have my own little you know, inside it, and some plants like of course, like rose, everyone has a sense of roses, energetic aspects, I mean, they overlap really with the medicinal aspects are some plants like you know, like Tulsi is a plant that is sacred in Hinduism, and there’s like a body of spiritual knowledge about Tulsi that has been around for thousands of years. But then there’s other plants where I feel like I You know, bring my own unique insight to them. And actually, one of my Shamanic teachers, Rocio Alarcon and I studied with her in Ecuador for a few weeks this winter. And she talked about how, in this I love, she talked about how it’s our job to create new data, like create new spiritual data surrounding. She was speaking generally, but in my imagination, like surrounding art, our interaction with the land and the plants and the spiritual, the natural, you know, spiritual forces, you know, it’s not just like dependent on some sort of cannon, but like, we are living in a new time that is unique to us. We have unique needs, and so we can interact with these plants based on what’s going on in this time. And, you know, we can also develop our own personal experiences. And that is how we do not steal them from others. 

Sheila M  22:51  

Yeah, yeah. And I, I think you’re speaking to something really important as well, which is to also like blind accepts things, even if it’s what you’ve been taught that it might not always be in alignment with how you’re feeling or what you want to work with, or what you feel called to. And that that’s okay. Like, it’s okay to take what not to appropriate but like to take what calls to you and to not feel a need to use the stuff that does not as well, which is really interesting. 

Amanda Midkiff  23:28  

Yeah, there’s a phrase I learned, like early on in my herbal education, which is, um, “that’s not my medicine.”  I think that’s great. I think probably the person is talking about marijuana or something, which I think is great because it’s just nice to think like, okay, that herb isn’t my medicine. Like for me skullcap is not my medicine. It’s just not people love skullcap and I’m happy for them it’s not my thing. Yeah. And you know, magically and but distantly like plants are living complex beings. Individual plants can vary also from each other depending on what they’re growing conditions have been. And so plants are going to we know as herbalist that medicinal plants are going to interact with each individual’s body in a different way. It’s the same deal magically, you know, plants are beings with personalities and quirks and preferences. And so just like with humans, like the chemistry doesn’t always match and so that’s extremely important and even like for instance, so Tansy is a plant that I work with extensively magically I teach Tansy and one of my classes ritual potion, and there’s like a certain way that I teach Tansy in a way that I primarily think of working with Tansy which is like as an herb that is expelling of pests and protective and things like that. But, and Tansy this year is my plant ally for the year. And the way that I’m working with Tansy in this year has nothing to do with, with like, expelling or protecting from pests or like clearing irritants for my environments, a completely completely different set of lessons and energy that I’m working with and You know, like if, if you and I, you know, say our friends for a decade, like what we’re talking about in 2030 is going to be different than what we’re talking about in 2020. And we can accept these things as natural with with humans, but we are not as quick to understand them with plants. 

Sheila M  25:17  

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, actually. So, when you, for example, when you kind of cultivate your relationship with a plan, and you kind of connect in this intuitive way, and you figure out that it’s different than like, maybe the traditional use of it, or however you want to talk about it. How does that come across to you? So kind of, how does that intuitive conversation come across to you? Do you hear? Do you see do you feel? Do you meditate on it? How does it work for you?

Amanda Midkiff  25:54  

I would say all of the above. Um, I think I think for me, the biggest the most important aspect of intuition, like so say if our intuition lives in our heart center, right? our confidence from our solar plexus, like supports our intuition. And I think the most important part of connecting with your intuition in that way is having the confidence to believe that what you are receiving is real. And the more you practice and believe that in little ways, the more you can believe it in big ways. And so with plants, sometimes I just get like a knowing and and maybe the knowing is a bit of information. Or maybe it’s more vague than that. Sometimes I go on shamanic journeys to directly communicate with the spirit of the plant. Usually, it’s one or the other. I mean, sometimes I’ll just like, close my eyes and pose a question, you know, where I might pose a question like, see if I’m teaching a class, I might ask, okay, who wants to participate in this? You know, and then I know when I go along with that, um, and I think the more you practice, like, honoring those knowings, the stronger in the morning clearer they become. Yeah,

Sheila M  27:02  

yeah, I, I totally agree. And my experience with intuition has been very much about, it’s like a muscle and the more you work it, the easier it gets to recognize it. And in that also, there are times where, like right now, where things are very externally stressful, where it can be a little bit harder to connect in the same way and you need to, like you said, Have that faith that what you’re experiencing is real and having that confidence in yourself, which I think can be a huge challenge for people to build over time. And especially for me, it was a lot of like validating to myself, and especially with working with my relationship personally with the cards for example, or just with intuition in general. It’s very different, and a different level of faith that you have to have to work with it personally. Then you do have to To work with it with other people. So like me, giving a reading to myself is a different experience and a different level of trust than I have to have in order to give like a reading to you. Because I would have to listen in a different way. And I don’t have the context of knowing all the things that I know about myself personally. Which on one hand makes it easier. But on the other hand, when I refer myself, I have a lot more emotional buy in to everything that’s going on. So that can bring its own level of challenge.

Amanda Midkiff  28:30  

Yeah, that’s very true. That’s very true. I haven’t like gotten to the place where I’m doing any sort of readings for other people in that way. I do get like kind of download, some people call them or insights. I think I love I think the phrase download is so apt. It’s also funny to me how quickly we’re able to like adopt technology terms.

Sheila M  28:55  

I know I know. It’s It is really funny to me, because I have had the same experience and sometimes I’m like, I understand why it’s translated to that because there is like that similar like loading bar type feeling. Like, this is, this is coming online, you know, it’s something is happening right now. And sometimes it’s like so much that I feel like it’s gonna, like knock me over and I’m like, Alright, slow it down a little bit. Too much. Um, but I do think it’s interesting that you have some some aspects of that as well.

Amanda Midkiff  29:30  

Yeah, yeah. 

Sheila M  29:36  

With the work that you do, and I understand from from some of your background and everything that you did learn about, you know, some herbs and stuff through your family of origin growing up, how, how have they dealt with kind of the shift in in your work over time and do they approve? Do they think you’re Are you the weirdo? How does it work in your family?

Amanda Midkiff  30:04  

My family is very supportive Also, I’m sure I’m the weirdo 

Sheila M  30:11  

Both can be true. Yeah. 

Amanda Midkiff  30:12  

Yeah, I especially both of my parents like they when locust Light was functioning more as a farm like they both came frequently to help me make products, bottle tinctures, plant, things like that. I think my father was like a little surprised when I decided to not go to law school. I was like, such a school kid. You know, like, I I love school. I thought I’d be in school forever. So that was like, an interesting departure. Definitely, like I would say the most like a dramatic decision on my part. Um, yeah, I mean, I say they’re pretty supportive. Um, I think I think for a lot of people like I’ve noticed like, you know, for I don’t know in a lot of stuff I’m just the person where like, no one asks me about my job. You know, like I can hang out with like, it’s just certain like social groups that I’m in and like just never comes up. I think it’s like, I think do a lot of people it’s like so far out there that like, what do you even ask? You know, obviously with other people they’re very interested about leukocyte. Mostly I think in my my broader family of origin. What I want is to one day for people to be like, how does Amanda make so much money with her weird small business? Like That is my goal to have people gossip about me and wonder like where all this money is coming from because they do not understand what my business does.

Sheila M  31:46  

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I love that so much. I love it. I and I like I like what you said too, about, like that kind of switch in identity because I think as hard as it can be on us personally. It can also be a challenge to people who have a relationship with us and have seen us in a certain light and I think when I was you know, coming out of the broom closet so to speak, I was so afraid that people were going to think I was different. Like I was, I heard after I got off the initial I’m afraid people are gonna think I’m crazy and try to commit me. I moved on to well I don’t want people to think I’m like, somehow, I am different now. But I don’t want them to think that I’m like, somehow, like a different person. Like, I’m still myself. 

Amanda Midkiff  34:09  

I think part of it. So I’m Sagittarius rising Sagittarius and also, I think like Mercury’s is in Sagittarius are gonna have a lot of, I’m on a complete winter baby in my whole chart. And I think part of that for me is like, I know, my ideas are crazy. I know they make no sense. And so I don’t spend time trying to convince anyone around me that it’ll work. Like I don’t even I don’t care about that. Like, I just plow ahead and I’m like, I’m gonna figure it out. And of course, like it’s a little different now that I’m in a relationship in my finances are tied with someone else’s. So like, even though my partner’s not involved in my business, like it’s not just, you know, my own self on the line. Yeah, that way. But still, I just like it. I know that the things I’m doing, like in some ways are new things. Or maybe if you’re in this niche, world of herbalism, you know, there’s obviously other people who are working with plants magically and spiritually. But if you’re not part of that world, then the thing I’m doing looks like it’s coming out of left field, it makes no sense. And so I just like I don’t expect people to understand and I don’t need them to understand. I don’t, yeah, I need I need people who are going to become my students to understand and that’s it. 

Sheila M  35:30  

I love that. I love that so much. So, when you look back now on how much has changed in like a relatively short period of time? Does it feel does it still feel as aligned? Like what has shifted or what feelings Do you have around that that transition point where you were kind of like, Okay, I know I need to do this and then away from being a veggie farmer. Which was like, you know, again, like the decision that you made after being like, Well, I’m not going to go to law school and now I’m going to be a veggie farmer. And now I’m shifting away to this and also to teaching more because it is more in alignment for you. And how does it feel when you look back? Do you feel like you do feel like you did? I’m gonna say a good job, but that’s not quite the right word. Do you feel like you did a good job of like listening to that intuition? Or has it been like a struggle for you to trust it? Or was it just kind of like yeah, okay.

Amanda Midkiff  36:33  

I I do feel like I’ve done a good job of listening to my intuition. Another part of my personality is like when something’s not working, I feel the need to change it very fast. And which is why things have changed change so fast. And like, I think just what I’ve been doing for the past, like six, seven years is just creating the perfect job for me. So it has become more perfect. Just the longer I’ve done it for me for in terms of my skill sets, my daily rhythms, you know, the things I’m bad at. And like I can, obviously, we see more and more room for improvement. And I feel like it’s just this refinement process of creating, like, the exact right work in the world. And there’s some things like when I started Locust Light, I had been a veggie farmer, but I’ve never worked on an herb farm. And so at the time I made, I made that decision to start the farm that year instead of going and moving to work on an herb farm for a series of reasons. And when I made the decision, I wrote this down because I found out later I journal a lot. I knew that I was starting something that was going to be very bumpy because I didn’t have any experience doing it. And I had written down like Okay, the first two years are going to be shitty. But then, you know, I’m learning trial by fire. And then when I when of course when you’re in it, you’re just like, why am I so bad at this? And so it was, um, like a few years later I found that I was like, Oh, I knew it was gonna be bad when I started it. I knew it was gonna suck. And then I did it anyway. And so now I don’t have to beat myself up for the fact that it was really hard and definitely way more difficult than it could have been. So I think it’s also helpful so often like if I make a big decision I write down when I’m thinking when I make it so that when you look back later, you can have clarity and hopefully more gentleness with yourself. 

Sheila M  38:41  

Oh my gosh, that’s so wise. So wise, I’m, I really feel like I need to do that now because I I do that all the time. And even though even though I know that something is the right thing, I still have a hard time with like second guessing my Sometimes because I am not a person, like, Oh yeah, let me just go be bad at this thing. Like, that’s how my brain works. I want to be good at everything right away. And, and I think, you know a lot of ways I’ve been spoiled in my life because I, I learned very quickly and like, again, like not only to toot my own horn but like, there’s a lot of things I’ve been good at without having to work super hard. And so now making that transition and really having to learn this stuff has been humbling in a in a whole different way that I think I’m giving myself the grace to not be perfect and to not need that perfection as like a definition of it being the right thing, if that makes sense. 

Amanda Midkiff  39:49  

And I think also like if you win, you -when you go through life, right? We’re in school, there’s a way to be good at school. We know what that when you want. We know what it means to be good at school. And if you’re competitive and you’re good at you’re naturally good at school, then you got it. And if you enter into a certain type of job or you do additional school, again, the ways to be good at it are clearly laid out. And you know, if you’re succeeding or not, you’ve got a boss, you’ve got systems in place to review you. When you run a business, it’s a complex, intuitive and never perfect, and there’s nothing that’s going to tell you you’re good at it. Eventually, hopefully your income does but it’s like this living messy being that’s flopping all over the place and like your job is to kind of continue to give it structure and parameters and and you also really come up against every, every single one of your own edges. Which it does not it just doesn’t happen in that same way if you are existing within an environment where you have an authority structure in place. That is telling you what to do how to do it if you’re good enough if you’re not good enough and that is a lot of ego death that happens. 

Sheila M  41:10  

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s such a beautiful way to put it and, and I feel that feel bad like so deeply that it is because as soon as I, as soon as I kind of took the departure and I had this experience in my career really early on, like really early on, I think I was like my first year and a half where I was working I was working a job and event planning and I I already knew that it wasn’t the right thing. Because I was exhausted and I was just working basically constantly I had no life at all didn’t date didn’t really have a whole lot of time to see friends or saw like my roommate no one else like for like a year and a half and then I had this moment where I just really big event night I came out of school and I was Like really ambitious I’m, I’m a Leo in the Sagittarius rising and I’m like, full speed ahead of time, like, ready to climb and like you said, was good at school and knew how to do that and new people like always new people, and how to communicate well and how to get how to influence and stuff like that. So, so I always knew that piece. And I had this experience of I had worked on this meeting, week long meeting, it was really big deals for huge pharmaceutical company. And it was out in Arizona, and just a long way for us. And it was really important and I was kind of like, running the show. I was like 23-24 years old and like, doing all of this stuff. And it was like a really, really big event even for for like our company and I was like, how did I get put in charge of this? As the new person but I think everybody else was just too busy and so on. I ended up taking this thing on and then my supervisor who had kind of worked on on it with me, ended up having to settle on her house that week. So I was going to have to kind of do at least the first part of it myself. And then, very unexpectedly, my uncle and godfather passed away. And I was kind of faced with and go do this thing that like, truly like nobody, somebody else could have done it. But it would have been really difficult for somebody because it’s literally the last minute it was like a couple days before and be there for the funeral and like processing that and I made the wrong choice, which was I’m going to go and do this event and like, regretted it immediately. It Like It was probably the right choice because I probably had to learn that lesson. And if I had learned it early in my career, I would have you know, followed this whole path that I didn’t need to follow, but it really reset things for me because I was like, You know what, as much as I can blindly and ambitiously kind of follow this path and this structure and everything and I get it. I never want to ever be in the position again, where I have to choose my work over my family or over something that’s important to me. It kind of reset things for me and like it sounds dramatic. I’m very much like at peace with it now, like I I realized that it needed to happen, but at the time, you know, I was like, 24 years old. And just like, I totally fucked up like, I you know what I mean? And so I think that’s what initially kind of snapped me out of being on that like path like, because it is like you learn your whole life. Okay, you do this and in my family, and neither both of my parents came from like, larger Families and so neither of them really had the opportunity financially to go to college. So I was the first one that was going to be able to go to college. So it was like a really big deal that I kind of follow this path. And my parents never put a lot of pressure on us. But I think when you come from that kind of environment, that there doesn’t really have to be a whole lot of pressure for you to understand, like what’s on the line. And so I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to kind of follow a traditional path. And so after that, I kind of floundered a little bit and shifted to different types of event planning that would give me like a little bit more freedom. And then I kind of eventually switched over to project management. But when I made the shift to leaving my job, I never want it. I never wanted to work for myself, like I didn’t want to be responsible for it. I didn’t. I didn’t want to have to change all the time. I hate change saying your life I can just kind of adapt and like allow these things to come on and like, adjust and not that it’s all like a peaceful, beautiful process, I’m sure but like, that’s not something that I, I’m getting better, but like, it’s not something I tend to meet with grace, if you know what I mean. So it’s been a big adjustment for me to kind of make peace in that way that it’s constantly adapting. And it’s, it’s kind of a living growing thing when you get out of a corporate environment where they’re structure and you’re just kind of stepping up or stepping sideways. It’s kind of like a constant evolution. And tomorrow, you’re doing this other thing and you just kind of have to go with it.

Amanda Midkiff  46:38  

Mm hmm.

Sheila M  46:40  

So, really interesting. All of that, a long tangent, but, but I do think really interesting kind of the way that you described how that that progress was for you and and the way that we kind of get used to functioning within a structure and lose our sense of what we need. You know? So I do want to talk about what I really see you embodying because it was really funny because even as you’ve talked about this, I’m like, Oh, it’s so funny. So I really see you in the Pentacles, which, kind of from like, day one, when we first started talking about everything, I kind of saw it because first of all, I was like, definitely the seven of pentacles. Because Oh, my God, if there isn’t somebody who’s patient, it’s a farmer who can like really put in the work to like, literally make something grow. And that’s taking the card like a little seriously. But I think also, in even what you described now, in terms of your patience with the progress of how your work has evolved, and the fact that you’re constantly willing to be like, okay, like, let me do this training and let me you know, go to Ecuador and study with a shaman and let me allow the things that We’re not really functioning in in my highest good in terms of, you know, the way I’m using my energy and the way I’m making money. And, and the seven of pentacles is really about like, putting the work in and knowing that what, like the growth is coming. Like it’s, it’s kind of like that all is coming if it will work, it’s just in the moment it can feel a little bit like is this ever gonna happen? Come on today. Does that make sense for you? 

Amanda Midkiff  48:32  

Yeah definitely does is interesting like I am you know, like we tend to see ourselves in certain ways and then criticize ourselves in other ways. And that is one of my biggest self criticism is feeling like in my day, in the immediate moment, I don’t focus and like use my time as well as I could, which is it’s probably objectively true. But I like almost as if I like crave Capricorn energy more. And then I don’t know if I was like talking with someone or it just occurred to me like because I started, like a few months ago, I looked at my chart in a more meaningful way. I have five planets in Capricorn more than any other. All my everything is in first in Capricorn, a few in Sagittarius, one in Scorpio, one in cancer. So like, most of them are in Capricorn, and I kind of realized I was like, Oh, I do have Capricorn energy. I actually have done a lot of shit. And I’m really critical of how much shit I can do because of the Capricorn and so like, I guess I just didn’t like I wasn’t really recognizing my own Earth. Signs and I guess I don’t know, like who Capricorns officially associated with but like, I think it’s similar like I never would have like, associated myself with the Pentacles in that way because I see myself as like a lazy piece of shit who just wants to be on the couch doing crossword puzzles. Um, but, but I think you’re right. And I think from an outside perspective, or not, or like a more objective, not the perspective. That makes a lot of sense.

Sheila M  50:16  

Yeah, yeah. And I know you need to because I’ve had that experience where, like, my one friend sent me the one day he was like, Oh, you’ve got a lot of energy. And I’m like, I don’t feel like I have a lot of energy. I feel tired all the time. But I realized, like, up until I quit my corporate job and started doing this. I was basically working like three jobs my whole life, like,

Amanda Midkiff  50:37  

Oh, yeah, me too. 

Sheila M  50:38  

And I was like, that’s not that. Oh, that’s crazy. 

Amanda Midkiff  50:41  

I know, so I use it like so now my life. I get plenty of sleep these days. Trust me. I do. But like, yeah, you always do working multiple jobs. And so then on my one free day off a week, if that like all I want to do is rest. And so I used to just think of myself as being so lazy and then it occurred to me that I was like, oh, there’s people who only work 40 hours a week. And they’re just like watching Netflix all the time. People who talk about binge watching shows, or people who somehow are watching all these shows they’ve like seen every show will come with it when the fuck are you doing that? And I realized I was like, Oh, I’m just tired, because I’m working all the time, which is not the same as being lazy. 

Sheila M  51:25  

Yes, exactly. And I like it’s so funny what you’re saying because like, I would be critical of myself for like the same thing. So I’m like, I feel like I have no motivation. I feel like, like you said, like, I could focus much better, I think. I think it does dependent I think especially I’m also a Sagittarius rising. So I will say that I think part of the Sagittarius rising energy can be a little bit of trouble focusing sometimes where I’m like, I want to do this and I want to do this and I want to do this and I have all these ideas all the time. And it can be hard to follow through but I think That’s where that Capricorn energy probably helps you a little bit to it’s like on like the back end of things, which is really cool. But yeah, I really see, it’s funny because I kind of see you from like the seven of pentacles through the nine of pentacles. Because I think like, that’s part of the journey that you’re you’re working towards, because I really consider that like, the waiting game of like planting something, taking tending to it, like making sure that it grows. And I think both in a literal sense, and also in the sense of the way that you’ve been really intentional about your business and started to kind of grow it into something that is more sustainable for you over time. And that speaks to the way that your energy is so that you’re not depleted all the time and not feeling exhausted. And with the eight of pentacles we kind of see that going about the business so kind of, okay, I’ve already planted that thing and now these are the the systems are This is what I need to have in place in order to be ready. Like when, when that stuff grows, and when it’s time to harvest and when it’s time to, like take care of everything. And with the nine of pentacles, it’s kind of like, like you described your end state of like, I really want to be, you know, the one that everybody’s like, how does Amanda make all that money with the weird shit that she does. Yeah. Because with nine of pentacles, it’s really like this, like, I’m established, I’m comfortable where I am. And like, I made this thing, like I’ve done all the work to be in this place where I can comfortably make choices that work for me without them having to revolve around just the financial side of things. Because that’s already been taken care of, and you’re really resourced in a different way. When, even though it’s still your livelihood, you’re not like dependent on a product or a thing making money because it allows a different level of creativity and freedom, I think then then you get when you’re like, need this thing to work?You know? Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah.

So I do, I do think it’s interesting because I’m like, I it’s funny because when people talk about situations, sometimes I’ll like have card will pop in for me and I’m like, Oh, that’s like the energy of this car. It’s like, and sometimes like people, I’m like, Ooh, yeah, I’m like, this person really embodies this thing. But I think, in in both the physical work that you do, the way you teach, and also the way that you’ve tried to grow and structure your business around yourself and what, what you really need to have things be sustainable, long term. Just so cool. Yeah. And so from that, can you talk to us a little bit about what you have coming up because I know you have some really cool And kind of entry point stuff for people who might be interested in becoming a fellow plant which of some sort. So can you tell us kind of how to work with you?

Amanda Midkiff  55:11  

Yeah. So as I said, I teach online courses, which is the only way to work with me right now. And so in mid September and this podcast will be coming out imagine late September, I will be launching my first evergreen product which will be a part of that will be always available on the website, which is called plant magic for beginners, which is a very short very accessible course to get people started on plant magic path. So cover the basics of plant magic in general. And some specifics. You work with one plant ally and learn a spell. So that will be available on my website all the time. And then my next big like seven week Mongo course is I’m ritual and smoke Which will be opening for registration in early October. And that is about working with smoke magic, which is not just smoking herbs we do cover how to smoke herbs every single way that we could possibly talk about how to smoke herbs we talked about, and you do make your own smoking blends. But we also work with herbs for like burning herbs in different capacities. We work with herbal powders and what I call the bones of plants. And I feel like there’s something I’m forgetting but we work with. We work with smoke magic and a lot of ways and because it’s October, we also work with themes of seeing beyond the veil and how smoke can part the veil. And we learn how to do shamanic journeying, and we dip our toes into working with ancestors.

Sheila M  56:57  

Alright, cool. Oh my gosh, that sounds awesome. And I know you’ve kind of you have a couple of different courses that you open over time. And so I know you did a couple months ago you did Ritual and Spell. So are these courses that you do? Do they kind of build on each other? Or do you have to take one for the other one to make sense? How do they work?

Amanda Midkiff  57:20  

You can take them individually, they do not build on each other in any sort of like practical way. In my imagination. They do a little bit because for instance, like if you take ritual and potion, so there it’s ritual and potion. We work with things we take internally. Ritual and smoke where we work with smoke, Ritual and Bath in which we work with things we apply to the skin we work with different types of bathing, and then Ritual and Spell, which is like truly like classic spellcraft. If you take any of the other three, you have more to pull from for Ritual and Spell. And if you take Ritual and Potion you have more to pull from for Ritual and Bath. But they don’t like literally build on each other.

Sheila M  58:08  

Yeah, it’s just like more tools for your toolkit so they can kind of enter at any point and it will still all make sense.

Amanda Midkiff  58:14  


Very cool, very cool. Well, I love I kind of love the way that you have worked with all of these different things because I think one of the things that I have learned over time is and how different intuition comes across for different people. And I think the fact that you kind of have these four different entry points and even the beginners plant magic course really offers a variety of ways for people to connect and to start to work with that their own magic and in different ways. So I’m glad that you that you offer like such a variety because I think I think it’s really important and one of the things that was hard for When I was starting out with learning that there’s not like a guidebook, like, that’s part of the whole reason I wanted to do this podcast too is like, I’ve read wonderful books that have helped me so much. But like, I want somebody to give me the instructions, like give me an instruction manual for my gifts, please think that what I’ve learned over time is how much it is personal and how much you have to kind of make your own guidebook so to speak. 

Well, I would, I would say the instruction manual. It is it is your intuition and it’s your desire. You know, like we we have such a weird relationship with desire, but like really, like, follow the thing you actually want. That’s your guidebook. Like it’s right there. You know what you want? And but we’re just taught to ignore that to hate it to shame it to blame it. Yeah.

Sheila M  59:57  

It is. It’s It’s It’s so funny to me, but I think That’s really important because I learned so much from, from learning from other people and even from like, as a reader, especially when I was like first learning mediumship It was very interesting to me because when I went to class medium school, so to speak, which I will talk about an episode 

Amanda Midkiff  1:00:20  

Yeah, I wannahear about that… 

Sheila M  1:00:21  

Which is very interesting. But even though I didn’t read in the way that other people read, I could tell what they were doing, which I thought was so fascinating. So because it is so individual and and I think everybody has it in their head that it’s like, like, I’m looking at you I’m looking at a spirit and like, that’s not really how it works for me it is how it works for some people. And also that things choose an entry point that is comfortable for you. So which is also one of the things that I think is really lovely about the way that you work because, quite frankly, if I had just started seeing things right away I would have absolutely shut that down, I would have been scared out of my mind. And I would have been like, Nope, not happening, not today. So, um, so I do think it’s really cool because I think the way in which you teach is such a lovely way for people to cultivate that relationship and to grow it over time into something that truly is personal and works for them and gives them a starting point. So really cool. 

 I love that and you kind of like answered my last question in in that too, and saying that like following your desire because I also think that’s really important. And one of the things that I’ve learned, I think the hard way and that a lot of people learn the hard way is an even what I learned the hard way from, like my corporate career, what’s like there’s a difference between being good at something and liking it. And it can be really hard to recognize because we got accolades and we got attention and we get validation from being good at things. 

Amanda Midkiff  1:02:00  


Sheila M  1:02:01  

And so I love that you said that kind of following your desire and what you really want to do because it can be hard. And especially, I think you kind of lead from such an individual way of being like, well, I’m just going to be the weird one. I don’t really care if people ask. Because I think it’s not it doesn’t come terribly natural to a lot of people. But I also think that that’s where the most learning is. So I think that’s really cool.

Amanda Midkiff  1:02:27  

Uh huh.

Sheila M  1:02:28  

And so I will put everything in our show notes for this episode so that everybody can find you but just offhand, for anybody who wants to look you up right now. Where can they find you online and how can they follow you or follow along with what you’re working on? 

Amanda Midkiff  1:02:46  

My business is Locust Light Farm that’s locust like the tree. And so my website is My Instagram is at Locust Light Farm. If you look up Lucas a farm. We have a private Facebook group. So if you’re not like, if you’re not on Instagram, you can do stuff in the Facebook group. I also do some live things in there. And you know, if you live close to the central jersey area I’m on right, almost right on the Delaware you know, typically there’s in person classes and, and also through a lot of the the growing season the farm is open on a number of Saturdays for medicinal, pick your own so if you live closely there are ways to visit and you can find more info about that on my website. And of course I also have a newsletter you can sign up for to get you know, updates and I’ve started I’ve started doing something which I’m enjoying which is like a choose your own adventure series. Which is like bringing fiction writing into my newsletter. So if you’re on the newsletter, there’s one that’s current right now so you’re too late for that one. But um, I’ll start another one again at some point. So if you’d like to choose Hearing adventure style fiction. Keep an eye out for that.

Sheila M  1:04:05  

I love that so much. Because when you started talking about it in our business group, I was like, Oh my god, this is taking me back to my childhood and like, choose your own adventure books. And I think there’s like a whole generation of kids that are not even, like familiar with them now, but I feel like it really speaks to my millennial soul. and stuff like that. So I love it. And so thank you so much for being here today. And I do I highly recommend following Amanda on Instagram in particular, because you always have such cool stuff in your stories I love following along with with your, your lives and your stories. I’m always interesting and always something like really, really different and outside of my personal wheelhouse. So like, I learned so much from from following along. So thank you so much for taking the time and being here today. And hopefully at some point, we’ll have you back to talk about something else that you’re working on.

Amanda Midkiff  1:04:56  

Yeah, and I’d love to hear more about medium school.

Sheila M  1:04:59  

Yeah. Yeah, it’s coming. It’s coming. There is an episode on that coming up soon. So, thank you so much!

Amanda Midkiff  1:05:05  

Thanks for having me. 

Sheila M  1:05:08  

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @StarSageSpirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you, and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episode shownotes you can head over to

Building a Sustainable Personal Tarot Practice

In episode 12 of Living Tarot, I talk about how to approach your tarot practice in daily life. There is a lot of information out there in internetland about how to effectively create your own tarot reading practice.  That much information can lead to overwhelm, anxiety and avoidance.  My goal in this episode is to give you some clear and concise ways to start incorporating your tarot reading into daily life.

  • I give some pointers about daily card pools and how to ask effective questions that won’t traumatize you.
  • I also talked a little bit about goal-oriented spreads for your day or your week and how you can use the Tarot to help you more effectively achieve those goals.
  • I speak to the importance of using Tarot as a tool in daily life when so many of us are feeling especially anxious and overwhelmed.
  • Finally I talk about My 7-week Tarot course Practical Tarot for everyday intuitives that is open for enrollment right now and teaches tarot for real life situations. This intuitive tarot course is all about integrating your tarot practice into your everyday life as a practical tool for decision making, managing anxiety, and empowering you to move forward towards your goals with confidence. 

Connect with Sheila:

Sign up for Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives here

To book a tarot reading, virtual tarot party, or distance Reiki session with Sheila click here

To read more about Sheila’s offerings click here

Or on Instagram

Check out this episode!


Sheila M  0:05  

Welcome to Living Tarot. I’m your host Sheila Masterson. I’m a tarot reader and teacher, an energy healer and medium and creator of Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. Each week on this podcast, I’ll share my own experience of embracing and growing intuition and interview guests about how they heard the call of intuition, embraced the adventure, and embodied the tarot along the way. Join us and learn how you can stop second guessing. Empower yourself through intuition and live intentionally with the Tarot.

Welcome back to Living Tarot. This week, I’m excited to talk about a topic that’s pretty important, whether you are a brand new reader or somebody who considers herself to be more established. I’m really interested to see what comes from this episode for all of you because we’re talking today about building a sustainable self Tarot practice and what that looks like. 

So, there’s a couple things at play when we talk about building this practice. So if you are brand new to Tarot, and you’re just learning to read for yourself, wonderful, I welcome you. If you are a reader who has tons of years of experience, you may still find something here. We can be our own worst enemy sometimes. I speak from, from a lot of personal experience of being my own worst enemy with my readings. But hopefully you will also get something out of this episode. It’s really meant for everyone. 

So, to get started, I really wanted to talk about this today because I think it’s important For us to establish routines now more than ever, in the era of COVID, and having a lot of anxiety and intense feelings that we’re processing, there’s never a better time to be keeping track of your readings. And I will tell you, I can be very sporadic about keeping track of what cards I’m drawing and what day and what questions I’m asking. And so the number one thing I will recommend is having a place where you can write down the things that come up in your readings, especially if you’re doing like a longer term study of what’s coming up for you. It can be so incredibly powerful to actually be capturing that information. Like any good habit building a sustainable self tarot practice really means finding an easy way to incorporate into your daily life. And so when we’re trying to build good habits, it’s really important to have repetition. So one of my deepest beliefs about Tarot is that it does not always have to happen in this big beautiful ceremony where you burn incense and, and meditate and do all kinds of stuff. That’s lovely if you have the time for it. But my wheelhouse is really making Tarot sustainable, and a piece of your real everyday life. And I fully recognize that for many of us right now, we do not have tons of time to do those things. Maybe you have children at home with you. Maybe you have a partner who is in your space more than usual. Maybe you’re in a house with a lot of family and it’s just a little complicated to find your own time and if that is the case, I am sending you so much love and grace because I know it can be so challenging. But what’s really important is finding just the small moments where things might be messy, there might be background noise, there might be something else going on. But you are still giving yourself the opportunity to step aside and just pull a card and see what’s going on. It doesn’t always have to be super elaborate. So I want to give you that permission. It’s a wonderful way to connect to get very spiritual to meditate to really drop in. But it can also be something that is like a quick daily check in that doesn’t require a whole lot of ceremony, or things to be perfect or for you to be emotionally neutral.

So I do really want to talk about that. One of the most popular ways to start is to just pull a daily card, and I think this is a fabulous way to get started. It’s a really good way. It’s something I do every day. And it’s a really good way to stay consistent and also to see what’s coming up for you on a particular day. There are some specifics about this that I think are important to address though. One of the things that I see happen a lot for people, especially when they are newer readers is pulling a card with a question like, “what will I experienced today?” Or “what can I expect today”, something like that. And I really encourage you to not ask questions in that way for a couple of reasons. When we are coming from a trauma-informed approach, it is important that we not ask questions that are going to set us up for failure. And suppose for example, that you asked your deck “What am I going to experience today?” and pulled the 10 of Swords, or pulled the tower card? You’re kind of going to be walking around for the rest of your day, waiting for the other shoe to drop or like waiting for something scary to happen. Or waiting to feel past trauma come up. And that can even do more damage than the actual thing happening without you knowing it’s going to happen because it brings up extra anxiety, this feeling of dread. And so what I would suggest, kindly, instead of saying, “What I experienced today?” is shifting the question just slightly to something like “What energy Do I need to embody today?” Or the question I asked most days is what? “What energy Do I need to embody to feel successful today?” And I’ve been very intentional about structuring that question in that exact way, because it’s not consistent across the board. What makes me feel successful on Monday might make me feel lazy on Thursday. And so, each day I got that opportunity just for a minute to check in. with myself and really see what card I could embody to feel successful that day. So that’s a really lovely way to check in with yourself and to really see what’s coming up.

 I have also noticed when I track that reading on a regular basis, that I will see weeks where I am like working my way through a suit, where one day I pulled a page of wands, and then the 10 of wands, and then the nine of wands, and then the eight of wands, and I’m like, Is this some sort of joke? Or is this really happening? And it can be really interesting because over time, as you write these things down, you can start to see themes that are weaving through different periods of your life. And maybe you’re in a very creative time and you’re pulling a lot of cups cards, or maybe you’re in a time where you’re extremely focused on your career. And you are pulling a lot of wands and a lot of pentacles because you’re trying to marry up what you’re really passionate. About with that ability to make money and build structure. And so it can really enlighten you where your focus is, especially at a time like this when a lot of us are feeling a little bit unfocused. So it really builds on itself as you go. And it gives you the opportunity to reflect back on these patterns. And also to notice what cards you work with very easily, what comes very naturally, and what feels uncomfortable, which can also help open your mind a little bit about your attitude towards certain cards. Because we all have cards that we find challenging, and it’s not as simple as the  “negative cards” in the Tarot. Some of us really struggle with the cups, we struggle to be in our emotions. We struggle to sit with that discomfort. Others of us are extremely emotional, very easy time connecting with emotion, but a really hard time maybe connected with reality and building a career and really establishing relationships, and a healthy way in which we aren’t overextending ourselves emotionally and so we might struggle more with Pentacles. So it can really show you where your strengths are where your weaknesses are and also with themes are coming up through your life as time goes by.

Hey there I wanted to let you know that my seven week Tarot course Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives is open for enrollment now. This course will help you stop anxiety in its tracks, effortlessly make decisions and read Tarot like a pro in no time. It’s time to learn Tarot for real life situations and you don’t have to do it alone. What would be possible if you could choose to prioritize developing your intuition as a tool for discernment, stronger relationships and effortless decision making. Practical Tarot Everyday Intuitives is a seven week Tarot course that helps you go from Tarot newbie to tarot reading whiz by using my tarot-informed decision-making method to tune in to intuition and move from indecisive procrastinator to confident decision maker. I know from personal experience that intuition is the key to learning Tarot quickly and providing accurate, actionable and empowering readings for real life situations. As I said, this is the last time I’m going to open the course for the rest of the year. It’s a great time to tune in. We’ll be working together on a weekly basis, both with prerecorded video courses, and live q&a session so you can bring all of the questions that come up from the weekly lessons to me directly, get your questions answered, and get some insights. If you would like to sign up. The link is in the show notes today. Or you can head over to I’d love to have you. 

So that can be a really lovely way to get started. For some people, they might hear that and be like, Oh, nope, no a bitch. I don’t have time every day to pull a card, and I get it. I really do. I know things are really crazy right now. So another way to do this would be to give yourself a reading for the week. And if you know that things get really hectic is your week goes on if you’ve got kids in school, if you are homeschooling, and working full time, God bless. Seriously, I don’t know how you do it. I’m sending you so much love and grace. I’m not. I don’t know how you do it truly. And what I will say is that sometimes when we do have a more hectic daily life, this can be a good option. And so what I try to stay away from again is those questions about what will I experience and to focus instead on you know, where can I draw strength This week, you can still ask about like, what obstacles might come up. So I will ask sometimes what obstacles might I encounter this week, but I always give myself some information about how to overcome them as well. So if I said, what obstacles might I encounter this week? I would also say what resources do I have to overcome those obstacles or to work with those obstacles, or to learn from them? Because that really takes some of the dread out of things, and can offer you a little bit more detail about exactly what it is that’s going on. And that can be extremely helpful. You’re also giving yourself a reading again, when we talked in the episode about asking good questions. You’re also giving yourself a reading that’s empowering you and giving you the questions that you need to start to make better decisions for yourself through the week. And what happens is, when we do come up against that negative thing, so to speak or that obstacle, it’s less scary because we kind of knew it was coming. And also, we’re already aware of what the resources we have to call on are. So it kind of takes some of the fear out of things. So that can be a really wonderful way to handle things. And again, with a weekly reading, I would encourage you to take at least like five minutes just to take some quick notes on what came up. 

There’s also really wonderful apps. If you’re a super busy person, you don’t like to take handwritten notes, or if you’d like to voice dictate notes. I’m trying to think off the top of my head. I know Labyrinthos is a really good one. It’s free and it will allow you to track your daily card pulls. And you can choose to manually enter the physical cards that you pulled rather than using like the digital because you can get digital readings on there as well. But off the top of my head, that’s one that I use sometimes to track things. And it’s very easy. You can download it on your phone, you don’t have to keep a notebook, but also a really good option for capturing that information.

So, one of my favorite options and something that I do a lot is a goal oriented card of the day towards whatever a weekly or daily goal might be. So bear with me while, I describe this one. This is one of my favorites. Because I’m a very goal oriented person. I’m kind of always focused I on the prize, and if you set goals for the week, or a goal for each day, you can draw a card for the week or the day to tell you how to achieve that goal. So this can be really, really helpful. And if you are like me, you might be struggling a little Bit with brain fog, and exhaustion with everything going on in the world right now. And so what can be extremely helpful is to have that extra direction where we are looking at something that will specifically help us achieve our goal. 

So for example, if I wanted to make sure that I wrote three blog posts one day and I drew the four of swords, I would know that taking lots of breaks in between each blog post would help me get things done. Now my natural inclination is not to do that. I use the Pomodoro method. I set a timer for 25 minutes I kind of work through things and then give myself a break work through things and then give myself a break. But in general, I stay pretty focused on the task at hand and I don’t like to like get up and give myself a separate time. But if I pulled the four of swords, I would know it was really important to incorporate rest in between each blog that I write, so that I actually have the time to let my brain kind of reset and rethink things. And that would be very important for me, like I said, because it’s not my natural inclination. But if I pull that card at the beginning of the day, then I know that that is what’s coming up for me. And it allows me to be a little bit more gracious with myself, when maybe I’m in the middle of writing those blogs, and I feel exhausted. So that can be really helpful. And I like this approach because it’s very direct, and very actionable. 

So you can also say, hey, my goal for the week is to write- I’m just going to stay with blog posts, 10 blog posts, how can I approach that? What should I do on what day and pull a card for each day of the week? And that will really show you you know, maybe one day you get the four of swords and you’re like, well, that’s not looking great for being focused and energized. And the next day you get like the eight of wands or something and You’re like, yep, that’s my day. That’s the day I’m gonna focus on doing that. But it can also show you things like, for example, I do this blog, and I do one on one client work. And maybe I have a day where I’m doing a lot of creative work. So if I pulled the queen of cups one day, I might say, okay, that’s a really good day for creative work. I’m going to focus on that. So I can really give you an action plan for the week. And especially if you are a person like me, who keeps a planner likes to write out goals for yourself and really be focused on everything. This can be a really helpful way to view your week, and a really productive real life tarot reading, where you’re incorporating what you’re doing in the reading with your real life. 

Finally, probably the most important way to read for yourself and to build it into your life in a sustainable way is to read on Big stuff that you have going on. If you’re mulling something over if you’re really frustrated in a relationship, if you’re looking for your ideal job, but you’re not really sure where to look, read on it, really look into it for yourself design your own spread. Or if you don’t like to design your own spreads, look one up online. And there are so so so many Tarot spreads out there. And I’m a huge proponent of kind of designing intuitive spreads, especially when there’s something that you’re going through over and over. And I think some of us, especially those of us, who read on a regular basis for clients can kind of forget, because we spend so much time doing it. And we get so used to it and we might use it in some spots, but think it doesn’t translate over into other areas of our life and we get we have like some hang ups about it. I think those of us who read full time. But part of the reason why we learned this in the first place is so that we can really reflect and give ourselves the answers that we need in the moment and take an objective bird’s eye view and everything that’s going on. So what questions might you feel called to? What might give you the deepest insight into what you really need right now and what empowering questions can you ask about that? So I hope that’s given you a little bit to think about today. 

And if you already know that you are interested in learning Tarot, my course Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives is opening up again, September 21 for my second run.  I’m really excited. It is a seven week course where we take you from brand new beginner to tarot reading expert, using my Tarot-informed decision making process, you’ll learn how to interrupt anxiety in its tracks, and really get clear answers to big questions in your life. So if that is something that appeals to you, I would love to have you and that link to sign up for that waitlist is also in the show notes today.  I hope that this episode has been helpful for you. And I look forward to speaking with all of you again next week. 

Thank you so much for listening to Living Tarot. If you loved today’s episode, please leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This helps us reach even more budding intuitives. Feel free to share on Instagram and tag me @starsagespirit and let me know what you learned, what surprised you, and what you’d like to hear even more of. As always, if you want to hear more about my courses, or book a reading with me, or for full episodes show notes you can head over to